.44 mag or 30-30?

Is this still true with the slower velocities of a .30-30?

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It is still true and the jacket thickness of the bullets intended to be fired by a 30-30 bullets is thinner than the jacket of bullets intended to be fired by a 30-06 or a 300 Win Mag.

If two identical slug hit the same medium and both do not deform, if one hits with double the energy it will penetrate more, physics 101

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Oh Jesus, I always know to automatically dismiss any post in a discussion about terminal ballistics that ends with "physics 101". Because I know whoever posted it really knows nothing about physics or just enough to get into trouble. Anyone with half a lick of sense should know that you cannot apply simple high school physics to terminal ballistics, otherwise, we would already have it all figured out. Which we obviously do not. So if you want to have any credibility with whom you're arguing, don't say things like "physics 101", because it has opposite the desired effect.

We're talking about 300gr .44's and you bring up the .45/70, which is only getting started with 400gr bullets. Fortunately, those of us who KNOW about big bores already understand that the bullet's weight has a DRAMATICALLY greater impact on penetration than velocity. Period. Otherwise, we wouldn't see 430gr .475's at 1350fps penetrating just as well as high velocity big bore rifle cartridges. So yes, the .45-70 would penetrate much better but not for the reason you think.

As usual, the discussion degrades into a back and forth with zero progress because some folks still believe in all this nonsense about energy. Despite simple evidence to the contrary.

Oh Jesus, I always know to automatically dismiss any post in a discussion about terminal ballistics that ends with "physics 101". Because I know whoever posted it really knows nothing about physics or just enough to get into trouble. Anyone with half a lick of sense should know that you cannot apply simple high school physics to terminal ballistics, otherwise, we would already have it all figured out. Which we obviously do not. So if you want to have any credibility with whom you're arguing, don't say things like "physics 101", because it has opposite the desired effect.

We're talking about 300gr .44's and you bring up the .45/70, which is only getting started with 400gr bullets. Fortunately, those of us who KNOW about big bores already understand that the bullet's weight has a DRAMATICALLY greater impact on penetration than velocity. Period. Otherwise, we wouldn't see 430gr .475's at 1350fps penetrating just as well as high velocity big bore rifle cartridges. So yes, the .45-70 would penetrate much better but not for the reason you think.

As usual, the discussion degrades into a back and forth with zero progress because some folks still believe in all this nonsense about energy. Despite simple evidence to the contrary.

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Craig


1) You can shoot 300 gr. slug out of a 45-70

2) Terminal ballistic on animals is much more complicated than simple straight penetration in wood or wet paper, obviously, we agree on that

3) I was simply saying that if you fire 2 identical undeformable bullets in the same medium, the one that will hit with much more energy will penetrate more, simple as that, physics 101 indeed.....do you really believe that if you shoot two identical nondeformable slugs in the same medium test, one hitting at 1000 fps and the other at 2000 fps you are not going to see any difference?? please...... now, I repeat, terminal performance effectiveness on live targets is much more complicated than that, there are many other factors involved.

If your theory of "the energy is irrelevant" would be even remotely true, you could happily head out to Africa hunting elephants with a black powder Sharps rifle.......are you suggest that is the case??

I don't know you but I prefer to face an enraged rhino or elephant with a 375 H&H firing a solid 300-350 gr slug than facing the same animal with a black powdered 45-70 shooting a 550 grain slug at 1100 fps.....H&H Hunter may have a thing or two to add to this....

Not sure if penetration is really that important to this discussion, but for non expanding bullets the penetration is related to momentum divided by meplat diameter. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

look at your reloading manual people.. compare case capacity and pressure..
30-30 wins hands down. It is faster and has longer range, it is a rifle cartridge.

If the purpose of owning a .44 rifle is to have a pistol using the same ammo, GREAT ..otherwise can we stop comparing the rifle cartridge to a pistol cartridge please??

girls, girls, you're BOTH pretty.. now stop fussing

But what I don't have doubt about is that a larger projectile will likely produce much more damage than a smaller projectile, assuming correct velocities. As we say in the legal world, let me give you a "Hypothetical". Would you rather be shot in the shoulder by a .270 round traveling at 2,800 fps or by a .65 lead ball traveling at about 950 fps? Say from about 75 yards? Now, we don't need to get into the theoretical details. In my "hypo", I imagine that the 270 round will pass through me, leaving two nice little holes. Maybe it will expand onto bone. But the .65? It will enter my shoulder and blow it apart! I will fall to the ground, totally incapacitated. NOW, I need some of you much more learned men to point out the falsity of this belief. Thanks!

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An expanding 270 bullet if it does hit bone it would take your arm away generating several secondary projectiles from your shattered bones.....I do not think a .65 round ball at 950 fps would make the same damage....

I rather be hit by a 45 ACP FMJ than a 270 for sure......

Archangel14 said:

As we say in the legal world, let me give you a "Hypothetical". Would you rather be shot in the shoulder by a .270 round traveling at 2,800 fps or by a .65 lead ball traveling at about 950 fps?

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If the 270 is a hollowpoint then you have it backwards. A low velocity round ball will leave a hole smaller than it's diameter. A high velocity expanding bullet will stretch the tissue beyond it's yield point, doing a massive amount of damage.

From the Annals of Emergency Medicine Volume 28, Issue 2:

Okay....how about a Howitzer round? How many of you want to take a Howitzer round to the shoulder moving at 950 fps?!!!

Just joking....thanks for the feed back. I learn something new everyday. I guess that's why a fast moving 125 grain .357 round has been called "devastating" to those who autopsied the cadavers of former people expir
ed by said round.

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Think about it in another way too...the faster the bullet goes the faster the tissue "has get out of the way" (depends on the bullet tip shape too, but in this case we are assuming a blunt shape because we are talking about an expanding bullet) increasing the trauma.

I was just about to pull the hydrodynamic (or -static) shock card, but you guys beat me to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

Slower, heavy bullets sometimes have an advantage as far as inertia is concerned, but fast bullets have a much greater ability to cause severe tissue damage. Personally I prefer heavy, large caliber bullets for many situations and .44 is one of my favorite calibers for a carbine, but I can't argue against ballistic facts. Then again, energy and sheer ability to destroy tissue don't necessarily equal stopping power and in an emergency you always shoot to stop, not to kill. Loss of life is just a very likely by-product. I often like to refer to Taylor KO factor for a ballpark estimate of the big picture.

First, compareing the 44 to the 30-06 loaded with 220's?? Is this discussion about the 30-06 now?? No matter, i don't think of the 06 loaded with 220's as being of much use, as i've seen them break up in frontal shots in caribou too many times...

NOW, load that 30-06 with a 200NP and see how much newspaper it will penetrate. BTW, are we being attacked by newspaper now too??

As for 300g 44's... I don't care if they will penetrate 100'! Nothing here has to penetrate 1" further than the animal they hit! AND, you can load 170NP's in the 30-30 and it WILL penetrate more than enough, plus give GREAT EXPANSION to give FAST kills! AND work at longer ranges as well as close up!

Like i said, i'm a 44 man, but in THIS case, the 30-30 wins!

DM

Open, flat desert, with little cover/concealment, and you're talking about a defensive rifle in California?

A Winchester 1894 in .30-30, please, if I can't just have a Mini 14. Luckily, I live in AZ, so I can have an AR.

Oh, I know you can have one, with the tiny mags and button. Do they still make you cut off the bayonet stud and put the funky grip on it?

I just think that if I had to move back to California for some reason, I'd not bother with the AR, and most of the reasons are what you stated about getting strange looks at the range. Here, half the rifles on the line at any given time are ARs.

check out calguns. bayonets are just fine, no need for a funky grip if you have a bullet button. you should see the looks i get when i put my monsterman grip on and rip off 30 out of my preban.

pretty good, kinda weird at first since you don't know what to do with your thumb. You get used to it though. But I guess I could do a review next time I hit the range. As for this thread I went .44 mag before 30-30. It fits my purposes better, I pick up a scoped bolt if i need to work over 150yds.

If qualities used as arguments for .30-30 here are important and meaningful, why settle for a carbine caliber and not go all out with a Winchester 1895 in 9.3x62 or .405Win, then?

I would go 30-30 for a better all around rifle unless your sole reason is to prepare for urban fighting/self defense. In that case I would go with the 44 because you can also have a sidearm and only carry one typr of ammo. I am not a prepper and don't own a .44 rifle or pistol but I do hunt with a 30-30 from time to time and I love the Marlin 336 for that purpose. In an end-world/save-the family scenario I just think it makes more sense to have a single cartridge that works in your rifle and your sidearm. With that said I have none of the recommended calibers. I do have a 32-20 revolver but no rifle. I would get one but $1000 for another toy is more than I want to spend.

Well I have both a Marlin 336 and a Marlin 1894SS .44 mag, and have hunted with both. If I had to decide between the two right now I'd take the 30-30 over the .44 mag everytime and twice on sunday. I've shot two deer using Win White box 240gr JSP ammo and my hand load. The handload consists of a 24gr H110 and a Hornady 240gr XTP-HP. I had a horrible experience with the WWB 240gr JSP not expanding on a deer at 40 yards. There was no spoor in the snow at the location the was shot. I didn't sart seeing any until about 25yds from where it was hit. Even then the amount of blood was pin head in size at best. If it were not for the snow on the ground that day I would have sworn that I missed.

The second deer was shot at all of 29 yards with the above hand load, high lung shot. This one too travled some distance, and I had to wait it out before it expired.

My 30-30 on the other hand is different story all together. It is much more accurate and flatter shooting. There have always been good blood trails and the deer don't seem to travel as far after being hit either. Even at the point of impact there is always copious amounts of blood on the ground and any vegetation the deer was in front of. I wouldn't even hesitate taking a 250 yard shot at deer with my 30-30 using 160gr Hornady LE ammo. Those that think the 30-30 is a 100 yard deer rifle at best, need to stop listening to and believing the hear say from other ill informed individuals.

And we have to ask ourselves a question: if a man, ANY man got whacked in the shoulder with a 30-30 round at 75 yards, is that man really going to continue the fight? Would it really matter if it were a .44 or a 30-30, or even a .357 for that matter?

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It depends upon the guy's body armor. 30-30 will penetrate Level IIIA soft body armor while 44 Magnum, depending upon the velocity, may not penetrate.

Archangel14 said:

Okay, I've been on a big bore trip for about a month and decided to order a Rossi 92 in .44 mag. Just waiting to unload a rifle this weekend before I purchase.

I told a buddy of mine about this today and he basically freaked out. He advised that for my purposes, I'd be much better served with a 30-30. I'm looking for a defensive rifle for that special "Katrina" situation. Not to use inside my home, mind you, but for outside use around the neighborhood or if I need to skee-dattle to a different area. I may do some hog hunting with it down the road. He made a good amount of sense as to why the 30-30 is superior to the .44 mag.

So now I'm flustered. Which one? I kind of like that ugly Mossberg 464 spx. Help me here......please!

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That your buddy freaked out shouldn't matter to you because this is all about what YOU want...not what your buddy wants. If he wants something different, he can feel free to go his own path.

The question you need to answer is "Will your choice work well for the intended purpose(s)?"

If the answer is "yes", then by all means, buy the gun you want.

I submit to you that a .44 Magnum round from a rifle has all the power and range you would need for the scenarios you have listed.


I'd like to also point out that this choice doesn't have to be the ONLY rifle you own, or ever will own. No rifle you get will ever be the "perfect rifle for all situations" anyway.

30 30 hands down

after shooting the 44 in a rifle I have found that this is a pistol round. Most of the ones that I have shot have a 40 or more twist. 100 yd accuracy was terrible. After much trying it did not get any better. 50 yds seemed to be about right. 30-30 is a lot more accurate for 100 to 200 yds.