The whole C&R thing seems really silly to me. It needs to be changed to Collector of Firearms and left at that. The fact that I can buy a semi-automatic battle rifle with the license, but can't buy a bolt action rifle made this year is ridiculous. The Dims should have no issues with this because every 03FFL undergoes a background check.
Common sense gun law we need
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Cosmoline
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It's been one of the more successful programs to come out of the GCA. Maybe the only one. It makes sense to me to open the 03 to anyone who wants one, for any firearms. But then again I don't think gun control has ever been about expanding programs that seem to work. And it's certainly not about expanding voluntary programs.
AlexanderA
Member
On the surface, this sounds like a good idea, and I would like it. But think it through, and realize that there would be winners and losers. The biggest losers would be traditional stocking dealers (brick and mortar gunshops), most of which would go out of business. Everybody (that is, consumers) would be licensed "collectors" and be buying their guns by mail and over the Internet. This would be the death of the local gun shop. Can the gun industry survive without actual gun shops? Good question.
Cosmoline
Member
I think that was the motivation, but it's ultimately foolish. C&R holders tend to be excellent gun shop customers. I buy there all the time, at least from those who will do business with an 03. And it's improper to use licensing to protect your rice bowl.
jerkface11
Member
Were there gunshops before the 68 GCA?
We've got a dealer around here that only charges $20 for a transfer. It's basically a hardware store. A buddy of mine was picking up a 1911 he ordered, and asked the guy how he stays in business only making $20 on a transaction? (I think if he orders a gun for you from a distributor, he only marks it up $20 too).
The guy reached under his counter, pulled out a stack of 4473s about 1-2" thick and said "See these, that's just so far today".
AlexanderA
Member
My point was that if an 03 license allowed you to buy current-production guns, most ordinary consumers would get the licenses so that they could buy current-production guns at wholesale through the mail. No need to go to a bricks-and-mortar dealer for a transfer. Worst of all, stocking dealers would simply be "showrooms" for guns -- people would go to them to see the guns, and then buy cheaper online. No way dealers could stay in business under those conditions.
bainter1212
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Not necessarily. If the c&r license were more expensive (say, $ 100) most folks would not get one, only serious chronic gun buyers (like most of us here) would get one. This would work just fine if we c&r holders were allowed more privileges.
I like Nevada's system, where CCW holders get to bypass the background checks for purchases and the associated fees. Anyone who has gone through the extra steps and had the extensive checks done, shouldn't have to continually do them over and over.
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barnbwt
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"It's been one of the more successful programs to come out of the GCA. Maybe the only one."
That's because it was added expressly to protect and benefit the people lobbying for its addition --no coincidence at all
Just think how much more successful the GCA would be if no firearms had to go through FFLs after some nominal procedure (like a state CCW or driver's license)
I always thought the C&R boom was simply an unintended consequence of the Soviet Union collapse; intended initially to protect the expensive collections of monied and influencial sugar-daddies from obnoxious Federal oversight while leaving the peons to rot, but suddenly we became flooded with cheap comblock guns whose massive quantities and microscopic prices made avoiding transfer fees more desirable than in previous years. Now that the surge of guns is gone and prices are up, bulk quantity of guns purchased by Joe is down (no crates of ARs in cosmoline floating around) so the transfer fees become less of an obstacle. There's not much monetary benefit to a C&R any more for most folks, and the record-keeping is definitely a turn-off for many.
My vote is to dispense with the special treatment for special persons and make the actual GCA itself a bit more permissive...
TCB
That's because it was added expressly to protect and benefit the people lobbying for its addition --no coincidence at all
Just think how much more successful the GCA would be if no firearms had to go through FFLs after some nominal procedure (like a state CCW or driver's license)
I always thought the C&R boom was simply an unintended consequence of the Soviet Union collapse; intended initially to protect the expensive collections of monied and influencial sugar-daddies from obnoxious Federal oversight while leaving the peons to rot, but suddenly we became flooded with cheap comblock guns whose massive quantities and microscopic prices made avoiding transfer fees more desirable than in previous years. Now that the surge of guns is gone and prices are up, bulk quantity of guns purchased by Joe is down (no crates of ARs in cosmoline floating around) so the transfer fees become less of an obstacle. There's not much monetary benefit to a C&R any more for most folks, and the record-keeping is definitely a turn-off for many.
My vote is to dispense with the special treatment for special persons and make the actual GCA itself a bit more permissive...
TCB
Remember, even with online discounts many FFL's get preferred pricing due to volume. A distributor is going to give someone that buys 100 guns a month a better price than someone that buys 1 or 2.
My local FFL doesn't mark his guns up much at all and it's generally cheaper for me to buy it through him than online, AND that's with him doing free transfers. I think stores would still do just fine.
My biggest reason not to do a program like the OP suggests is that the ATF would then be knocking on MY door every time they wanted to see a form rather than the FFL's. And I'm not sure how it is now, with a C&R do you have to do a form on someone that buys a gun from you or can you still do a regular private sale? (In states that allow it).
JustinJ
Member
By that reasoning everything but brick and mortar grocery stores and gas stations should be out of business by now because there are few things one can't buy cheaper online than at an actual store.
Either way, restricting gun rights to create an artificial demand for physical gun shops seems absurd on a few different levels.
it is amazing how some people like to be robbed. would your friend felt better if the guy charged him $150
Matthew Courtney
Member
The purpose of background checks is not to keep guns from criminals, it is to impede the free exchange of lawful firearms among the law abiding and create an easily searchable record of firearms transactions. If you quit expecting the Dims to be reasonable and honest, you can reduce your stress level considerably.
I think that it would be a good idea and a step in the right direction.
At least I'm not the only one. Even after taxes my local guy is only $5 more than the cash discount price at Bud's Guns on the Ruger American I just ordered. The only reason I would ever buy online is if he couldn't get it for me or it was just an amazing deal that I couldn't pass up.
At least I'm not the only one. Even after taxes my local guy is only $5 more than the cash discount price at Bud's Guns on the Ruger American I just ordered. The only reason I would ever buy online is if he couldn't get it for me or it was just an amazing deal that I couldn't pass up.
Good question. I'm sure there were sporting goods stores back in the day. Before 68 GCA people could buy from mail order, hardware stores, gas stations, department stores, perhaps even pharmacies.
Cosmoline
Member
Except that they did for many many decades before the laws changed. And dealers that are only in business because of federal restrictions on licensing should probably not be in business anyway. Furthermore, I'm confident I could beat the prices offered by local shops in almost all cases by shopping on line even with FFL transfer fees in place. But very few of us shop that way. I mean I have a C&R but I still buy C&R firearms from dealers.
Well it's currently designed for collectors. So for example I was able to use mine last week to grab up a minty Polish M44 at the Oregon gun show without the red tape. I can buy and trade with other collectors all over the country in person or remotely. That's the advantage of it. If you expand it to cover all arms, the nature of the license changes dramatically. For the better, I think.
Actually the license itself wouldn't need to change, the ATF could simply decide tomorrow that all Title I firearms are curios. Just like they could decide tomorrow that all Title I long guns are 'sporting', which would allow AKs to be imported in their standard configuration. A truly pro-2A President could issue executive orders to that effect.
Exactly, it allows you to legally buy across state lines. I agree declaring all Title I firearms to be curios would be a good thing.
coloradokevin
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AlexanderA said:
Respectfully, I disagree.
With the exception of items that are regulated like firearms (and I can't think of any other consumer goods that are regulated in this particular way), people have been purchasing their goods online for well over a decade now. Admittedly, the face of business has changed a bit because of this evolution in commerce, but there are still a ton of brick and mortar stores around that sell things that can easily be bought online. Honestly, while I do sometimes buy online, I generally prefer to buy locally, even if it means paying a few dollars more. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things that I like to buy online, but there are some notable advantages to buying locally:
1) you get to see, touch, and examine your purchase before buying it
2) you get your item NOW, not in a week (or 4-6 weeks)
3) you have dealer/seller support immediately available to you
4) returns and exchanges are often easier
I don't believe that expanding this program would be the death of the local gun stores. But, perhaps the local gun stores would have to evolve, just like every other business has. Indeed, this program might be the death of price gouging on FFL transfer fees, but I personally think that's a good thing anyway.
medalguy
Member
Coloradokevin has the answer. I want to look at, handle, and drool over a gun before I buy it. New guns? I've only bought about 4 new guns in the past 10 years at brick and mortar stores, but I've probably bought 50 online.
And suppose manufacturers went back to the old ways of doing business (pre-68 when I had an FFL) and only sold to distributors who in turn mostly only sold to stocking dealers? That would protect the small shops as we know them today.
Again, this is "common sense gun laws" and we know how all that works.
And suppose manufacturers went back to the old ways of doing business (pre-68 when I had an FFL) and only sold to distributors who in turn mostly only sold to stocking dealers? That would protect the small shops as we know them today.
Again, this is "common sense gun laws" and we know how all that works.
wally
Member
Its called "Crony Capitalism" and its why Capitalism's worse enemy is a successful capitalist.
If we are going to get "universal" background checks rammed down our throats, we should demand expansion of the FFL-03 to all firearms to expand the universe of dealers who could do the checks for individual transfers to keep costs down as part of any "compromise".
You're forgetting that "compromise" means that we give up something and they take a break from hyperventilating for a few months while they decide which "loophole" to hyperventilate about next.
In CA a 03 FFL holder isn't allowed to have a C&R handgun shipped directly to themselves (or a C&R long gun that's not 50 years old, even if it's on the ATF's curio list). The 03 FFL was a "dangerous gun violence loophole" that CA authorities had to shut down, because people intent on committing a violent crime were mailing a $30 check along with their name, SSN, and home address to the ATF first.
(See CA's nonsensical rules here: https://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm).
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