Help dating a Bayard SBS

I have no expertise whatsoever, but boy, that sure is a beautiful gun.

My understanding is that older shotguns were commonly chambered for shells which are shorter than those used today. Modern shells will often fit, but there is not enough room for them to open up, leading to dangerously high pressures even in otherwise modest loads.

If someone here can help decypher those numbers under the barrels it will probably tell you exactly what to feed it. Please proceed cautiously.

I'd be very surprised if it took shells that long. Hopefully someone with some real knowledge will stop by soon - the extent of mine is nicely covered here:

http://www.nevadashooters.com/showthread.php?t=18270

Note that the length you observed may refer to the length of a _fired_ shell, with the petals open.

I don't know but good grief, that is a beautiful shotgun.

Go here for Belgium proof-marks to data it.

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

However, the case hardening colors are far too vibrant for a gun as old as that one appears to be.

I would suspect it has been refurbished and re-color cased in the not to distant past few years.

rc

The rib address marking shows this gun was made after 1905, but Pieper (the owner of the Bayard trademark) closed down in 1954, so that's still a pretty big window. There is a chart going around that's supposed to list the Belgian inspector's marks (the * over a letter) by the dates they were in use, but I can't find it.

Proof marks look like 1910-1924, per Kennett.
The (star) A is consistent with a chief inspector there during the period.
Never saw the (star) UA inspector's mark.

75mm (3") chambers are highly unusual for a gun of the period. I'd get them measured anyhow.
Yes, shotgun shells are measured as fired with the crimp open, the chamber must match.
Although it is nitro proofed, I sure wouldn't be shooting any 3" magnums in that pretty little thing.

The closest thing I could find in the 1911 ALFA catalog was 160 marks, about the same as a Haenel Sporter rifle or a Winchester 1886 all the way from America.

Based on the proof marks, you shotgun was made by Anciens Etablissments Pieper, S.A. (owner of the Bayard trademark) in the period 1910-1924 as indicated by Jim Watson.

It is a 12 gauge with 2.592" (75 mm) long chambers. The 1903 UMC catalog lists 3" and 3 1/4" length shells so one can assume that Belgian Ammunition makers loaded similar shells. The chamber diameter is 0.811" (20.6 mm).

This gun is not chambered for the modern 3" (76 mm) Magnum shell!

The bores are a tight 12 gauge with a diameter of 0.716" (18.2 mm). The left barrel is choked full at 0.685" (17.4 mm) diameter (0.31 or 0.8 mm constriction) and the right barrel is choked improved modified at 0.696" (17.7 mm) diameter (0.020" or .5 mm constriction).

The proof marks are standard for a smokless powder proved shotgun of the 1910-1924 era with appropriate inspectors marks.

Do not use modern 3" (76 mm) Magnum shells in this gun!

The 1903 UMC catalog lists 3" and 3 1/4" length shells

I didn't know that, what were the loads?


If I wanted to shoot this little jewel, I would handload something at the low end.

If buying shells, I would use name brand target loads, like Winchester AA, Remington STS, or Federal Gold Medal. I doubt the "light" loads you see in the sporting goods department are of any lower pressure.

For something really mild, the Polywad Vintager shells are meant for old, light game guns, about anything nitro proofed.
http://www.polywad.com/guide.html

Also RST
http://www.rstshells.com/rst_classic_shotshells_shotshells.htm

The 3 1/4" length "Arrow" shells were loaded with Bulk Smokless powder and were 3 1/2 Dram Equivalent with 1 1/4 ounces of shot.

There are several old ammunition catalogs that are available for download including UMC 1904 and 1905 at: http://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs

WaffenVerkaufer: My major reference on proof marks is "The Standard Directory of Poof Marks" by Gerhard Wirnsberger translated by R.A. Steindler which, I believe, is out of print. Also I use information from the following websites: http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html and
http://shotguns.se/html/belgium.html .

You can google Proof Marks for any country and usually find a list and explanations of what the marks mean.

I go by the Lee Kennett proof mark articles in Gun Digest in the 1970s and 1980s.
He did one country a year. I wish they had put them all out in book form.
The Baron Engelhardt series in the 1950s was good, too; but I no longer have those.