Concealed Carry revolver questions

Amen the above. I've never warmed up to "J-Frame" sized revolvers and I hunted all over trying all kinds of guns until I found a Smith & Wesson Model 12-2, Airweight. A K-frame, six shot, revolver, it's as light as a feather, and shoots just fine. Now it's my EDC, and I don't even think about another one. I carry a couple of speed strips in a nylon leatherman pouch, and the gun in a OWB holster.



They're not "rare" I don't think, I suspect the right word is "scarce" but if you find one, it's a gem.

This is true. Noise, blast, and recoil are all at spectacular levels. Effectiveness of the bullet? Not so much.

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Stephen Camp (may he rest in peace) summarized it well:

The notion that the .357 is so inefficient in the two-inch guns that it’s no more effective than a hot .38 Special just doesn't seem to be true. While neither is at its best in the snub, the magnum is the more potent of the two with most ammo.

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In my own testing, I've found that a 2.25" Ruger SP101 can launch Buffalo Bore - Barnes 140 XPB Bullet at an average of 1190 ft/s using low flash powder and with less recoil than an air-weight j-frame shooting Speer's Gold Dot 135 grain short barrel load (which in both the 442 and SP101 comes in around 850 - 900 ft/s). We are talking about a heavier bullet moving approximately 300 ft/s faster. The same SP101 can launch a 180 grain hard-cast bullet at 1150 ft/s.

Given the two, which I chose subjectively for this post since I have used and tested them both, I know that in terms of accuracy, recoil, and perceived performance I would be most comfortable with that 140 grain Barnes bullet at 1190 ft/s. However for the purpose of concealing of course the J frame wins. I have been known to carry both.

We could debate which round is more appropriate for the snub revolver platform when considering weight (of bullet and firearm), barrel length, intended purpose, and specific loading of the cartridge...

But the idea that .38 and even .38 + P are the ballistic equivalent of .357 Magnum simply does not hold up, even in short barreled revolvers.

Comparing apples to apples in terms of load, the magnum will produce about 100fps more in the short barrel. I seriously doubt that will make any difference in effectiveness. But it does produce all the noise and flash mentioned.

3" SP 101 as others have said. With the correct grip installed, it is the best al steel carry revolver out there IMO.

Bubba613 said:

This is true. Noise, blast, and recoil are all at spectacular levels. Effectiveness of the bullet? Not so much.

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It's clear that you have no experience or data to back up your position since you use phrases such as "seriously doubt".

Perhaps you should read this thread that has some actual data.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=725698

Of the four .357 Mag loads and three .38 Spl loads I tested, there was a significant difference in muzzle velocity and energy shooting the .357 Mag loads. The average MV of the four .357 Mag loads was 1,150 fps with an average ME of 366 ft-lb. Compare that to the .38 Spl loads with an average MV of 805 fps and a ME of 195 ft-lb. That's a difference in MV of 345 fps (+ 43%) and ME of 171 ft-lb (+ 89%) in favor of the .357 Mag.

Perhaps the phrase "cherry picking data" means something to you?

Compare Buffalo Bore's 158gr FBI load and their similar weight .357mag load and the difference is as I wrote.
And you haven't shown that even 300fps makes any difference in effectiveness.

Over the years, I have chosen my carry guns based more on the convenience and probability that I would actually be able to carry them than ballistics. The arguments over the best guns, calibers, manufacturers, barrel lengths, holsters etc, have been beat to death and will never be resolved to 100% satisfaction here. Sure, I get the best self defense ammo available for each but, to me, it has always boiled down to whether I can carry in any situation with any clothing. It doesn't do me any good to have my only carry gun to be an 8" .44 magnum if I have to leave it sitting at home.

I have a GP100 .357 to carry in the woods. I have a Springfield xd .45 to carry when I am wearing a jacket. I have a Beretta 9mm PX4 for carrying when I am wearing a belt with my shirt un-tucked and I bought an LCR and a Bersa .380 for shorts or days when I am wearing a tool belt.

In short, advice is great but, regardless of what anyone's opinions are, you will be the one responsible for your gun. Make sure it is comfortable in your hand. Know how you are going to carry it and get proficient with it. Ultimately, those 3 things will be far more important than any popular consensus you might find here

Bubba613 said:

Perhaps the phrase "cherry picking data" means something to you

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That's a laugh. I provide velocity data for seven loads (eight if you read the link) and you compare two.

Bubba613 said:

And you haven't shown that even 300fps makes any difference in effectiveness.

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300 fps difference is HUGE when it comes to bullet performance. I shoot FBI barrier tests regularly and 100 fps makes a big difference let alone 300 fps. A 15% reduction in velocity often will result in zero bullet expansion when shot through heavy clothing.

And you haven't shown that even 300fps makes any difference in effectiveness.

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If you don't think 300fps is a significant difference, you obviously never shot anything with two loads 300fps apart.

Yes but self defense bullets need to expand to be effective. Added velocity is added insurance that the bullet will do its job. Granted, I have no desire to carry a .357 of any kind but the terminal ballistic advantage is tangible and impossible to ignore. Whether it's necessary or desirable is another matter entirely.

That's a laugh. I provide velocity data for seven loads (eight if you read the link) and you compare two.

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You're still cherry picking data. And as mentioned, penetrating barriers isn't much of a factor in SD. Expansion is a plus in handgun rounds. Shot placement and penetration are the key factors. And the .38spc +P is adequate for both, plus allowing follow up shots as needed.
Really your defensiveness over this suggests you have very limited experience here.

You're still cherry picking data. And as mentioned, penetrating barriers isn't much of a factor in SD. Expansion is a plus in handgun rounds. Shot placement and penetration are the key factors. And the .38spc +P is adequate for both, plus allowing follow up shots as needed.

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Wait a minute, you didn't say it was unnecessary. You said that 300fps makes no difference. Which are you arguing, that there is no difference or that the difference is insignificant???

Expansion is not a plus, it's mandatory. Otherwise we'd save ourselves the trouble and use hardball or LRN.

Really your defensiveness over this suggests you have very limited experience here.

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Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.

A good 357 carry gun? Smith 3 or 4" 66, and I forget the model, now discontinued, I think, the "Ladysmith", with proper grips. A "real" man wouldn't carry a "Ladysmith??? (Oscar's weapon of choice; "Lady Vivamus"; Sword; Glory Road; Robert Henlein. Great adventure!) Ruger SP 101, Security Six, GP100, Wiley Clapp edition, 3";. All carryable.

Ammo? The eargesplitten loudenboomers...125/14-1500fps. VERRRY EFECTIVE...but check out the ballistic gel tests of .38 Spl. +P Remington 125gr. Golden Sabers , Hornady Critical Defense 110gr ;Speer 125 and 135gr. Gold Dot "short barrel" and other ammo on YouTube...at LAST I've found a reason for its existence!...and you will be pleasantly enlightened!

There are others, and the "Old technology" Remington 158gr LSWCHP is still a great load, as is the Buffalo Bore 158gr 38 Special load at 800 fps.
Plenty sufficient for the job, given proper placement, and will not blind, and deafen, or knock you down and stomp on you!

Bubba613 said:

And as mentioned, penetrating barriers isn't much of a factor in SD. Expansion is a plus in handgun rounds.

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Kleanbore said:

That's relevant when there is a need to penetrate the vitals of a medium to large game animal, or when there is a need to penetrate barriers, auto bodies,body armor, or plate glass.

However, the question pertained to civilian concealed carry.

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The FBI considers heavy clothing to be a barrier. 100 fps makes a huge difference when heavy clothing is involved. Many assume that their "load du jour" will work just fine but I've seen numerous failures such as zero expansion, partial expansion, jacket/core separation, poor penetration or excessive penetration.

This is true. Noise, blast, and recoil are all at spectacular levels. Effectiveness of the bullet? Not so much.

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True, although some loads are better than others in this respect. However, real life chronographs results out of snub barreled revolvers (as opposed to factory results) routinly show 200-300FPS difference between .38 +P and .357 out of the same gun. I would argue that 300FPS is going to result in a noticable difference in effectiveness.

True, although some loads are better than others in this respect. However, real life chronographs results out of snub barreled revolvers (as opposed to factory results) routinly show 200-300FPS difference between .38 +P and .357 out of the same gun. I would argue that 300FPS is going to result in a noticable difference in effectiveness.
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Given that shot placement and penetration are the major determinants of handgun effectiveness, on what basis do you argue the difference will be noticeable?

Bubba613,
This .357 Magnum from a short barrel revolver argument has been done way too many times and it's not the focus of this thread. Also, your assumptions on the .357 Magnum are just plain wrong. I choose to shoot .38 Special ammo for SD but not because the .357 Magnum is no more effective than the .38 Special.

I think we can all reasonably agree that opinions may vary as to the best round in any firearm and the appropriateness of different calibers in different platforms, while acknowledging that .38 Special + P and .357 Magnum are categorically different and perform within distinct parameters - with some overlap.

Now, back to the subject of the original post...

Can't go wrong with a speed six.

The most comfortable revolver I have ever carried has been the .38 LCR in a plain ol' do-it-yourself minimalist OWB holster. So light, I forget it I have in on my belt. Fantastic trigger too. However, I have never been able to master the crackshot snubbie. I generally only carry the LCR as a bad breath belly gun. I know they are WAY more accurate than I can shoot them.

For bumming in the woods or just because I can, I sometimes pack a 4.6" New Vaquero on my hip in a modified open top holster. Like others have said, length generally isn't why you can't hide a revolver as well as an auto. I throw a jacket or shirt on to cover the rig and I'm done.

However, the LCR sure is easier to pack. Those little poly-wheelies might not survive to be handed down to your great grandchildren, but they do have a place in ownership if you need the lightest/most comfortable.

My favorite concealed carry revolver is a .38 Special 3" S&W model 60 FL. Small enough to conceal well under light clothing , large enough to shoot well. I have several S&W J-K-L-N frame revolvers from 2" to 6" barrel length in .38/.357. If I could keep only one, it would be the 3" 60.

I carry one of several revolvers depending on a multitude of conditions. If you can find a good condition 3" S&W model 65 and use heavy weight magnum loads or any 38 Special you should do just fine. I have also been known to carry a 4" S&W model 28, a 4" Colt Python, and a 4" S&W model 10HB. Not all at the same time though. My wife has the 2 1/2" S&W model 66 I carried as a Private Investigator years ago.

Responding to OP, I started with a Kel Tec p11, went to a Glock 23, and have been settled on a S&W Airweight for about 6 mo now. I have no problems with recoil even using +P, good sight picture, and the gun basically disappears - I don't even notice it's there when I'm carrying. Don't overlook that one.

@huntershooter and Cajunbass

What is the purpose of the black spacer between the grip and the trigger guard? I've seen them on plenty of revolvers and all I can see them doing is pushing my pinky off the end of the grip.

Is it a recoil management thing, or does it just widen up the grip for comfort or what??