Concealed Carry revolver questions

[David E]

I look forward to your video.

 

[MCMXI]

You'll have to wait until I can find a 342 that will chamber a .357 Mag round ... I'll get right on it though.

 

[David E]

The statement is silly because it's not an absolute.

Sure, quite often someone complains of the kick when their technique sucks. Proper technique executed properly goes a very long way to taming most guns/calibers. But we also need to recognize that merely shooting something without significant pain may have no place in shooting something rapidly without pain. IE; Keith spoke of women shooting a .44 magnum "properly" by letting the gun kick high in recoil, minimizing the recoil forces being transmitted to the hand(s). This is fine for a hunter or target shooter that has little need for accurate rapid fire defensive skills, but the technique lacks severely for when you do need or want accurate rapid fire defensive skills.

And maybe some 350# guy can crank off a box or two of Corbons from the 340. But if his 115# wife complains about her disjointed thumb she acquired firing the same gun and load, it's not because she simply used the wrong technique. And telling her to "put in the time to get used to it" isn't going to change her mind.

 

[TestPilot]

Disagree. Nobody wakes up in the morning and decides they're going to shoot 200rds of .475Linebaugh in a session. Recoil tolerance, like anything else, must be built over time. If you only ever shoot once a month, you'll never get there. That's what's meant by "putting in the work".

It's a very simple concept.

Sense of pain logically does not equate sense of shame.

It is nonsese to claim sense of pain comes from sense of shame witout regard to specifics of the a given circumstances.

Can pain be caused by bad technique and the shooter just does not want to correct it because of ego? Yes.

Is all case of pain caused by that? No. It is not only not logical, but also irrational to claim such generalization.

 

[Jaymo]

And some guns, in some chamberings, are just damned uncomfortable to shoot.

I like my revolvers made of steel. I like my hard kicking revolvers shod in Goodyears, Michelins, or BFGs.

 

[CraigC]

Your technique will matter little and the pain involved will suggest that there's little merit in trying to simply "get used to it."

Nonsense. Try playing a guitar for the first time. It'll hurt your fingertips. Only with PRACTICE does it become easier as your fingertips toughen and callouses form. Same concept. Like I said, and this has been proven by folks who shooting heavy recoiling sixguns exclusively, recoil tolerance is made, not born. Once made it has to be maintained or it will be lost. Yes, very simple concept.

 

[TestPilot]

Nonsense. Try playing a guitar for the first time. It'll hurt your fingertips. Only with PRACTICE does it become easier as your fingertips toughen and callouses form. Same concept. Like I said, and this has been proven by folks who shooting heavy recoiling sixguns exclusively, recoil tolerance is made, not born. Once made it has to be maintained or it will be lost. Yes, very simple concept.

Saying training is necessary to control recoil is one thing. To make an irrational generalization that those who feel pain from it is lazy is a different thing.

Human will can conquer many things, but one thing it cannot defy is laws of physics. There is a price. Such as damaged shoulders of shotgun instructors. Such as Jerry Miculek's damaged thumb nerve(he states so in his education video). Any reasonable person should weigh that price against shooting a high recoil pistol.

You don't get something for nothng. Many shooters learned the hard way, thinking "Ooo, I shot this a while and now I can handle this and feel no pain anymore." just to realize years down the road that they messed up their hand beyond repair and they cannot enjoy shooting as much as they want do any more.

It's just like countless infantryman who served who "got used to" carrying 100 lb+ weight and marching 20~30 miles, and realize they are headed for 100% disability and end up strolling around in a hov-e-round. I realized "getting used to" really isn't, and acted accordingly. Which is the reason I was able to get out of the infantry without major disability.

"What do you get in return?" is a valid and necessary question, especially when there are plenty of options avaiable that does not involve disability and loss of combat efficiency.

I hate shooting my 642. Even hate it even more to shoot 38 +P. Can I shoot it? Of course I can.
But, why? I can simply replace that with a steel J-frame and get higher efficiency wihtout the pain. I can shoot an even more powerful 9mm from P290 which is even more compact. Why should I spend my own time and money to subject myself to pain when I get nothing better in return?

There is a reason why respected combat experts stick with guns with recoil that ranges from 9mm to 45ACP. It's not as if people like Paul Howe, Bill Rogers do not shoot a 10mm out of their full size service gun or advocate carrying a 357 Magnum full power load in a airweight for combat training becaue they are "lazy" or "fear getting embarrased in front of a crowd."

 

[RealGun]

You can shoot the messenger for his condescension and lack of social grace, but I too have had the experience of being intimidated by guns and loads, only to find later that they are second nature, no big deal. I also find more loads that seem too light to me, perhaps once regarded as perfect or old friends.

 

[David E]

Some of you think that practice, practice, practice will solve ALL problems associated with recoil, even severe, painful recoil.

You're wrong.

I agree that good technique executed properly will solve a good many issues of "gee, that gun just kicks too much." In fact, just yesterday I had a gal complain about the kick from her Glock 27. I asked her how she held it and she showed me the classically wrong "cup and saucer" hold. No wonder she didn't like the kick! I showed her a better technique and we will see how that works next time she goes out.

I have no trouble firing my 642 loaded with 158 grain LSWCHP +P rounds rapid fire, accurately. Starting from high ready, all shots on a sheet of paper at 5 yds in 1.44 seconds. Proper technique and practice come into play.

I am not unfamiliar with revolvers. In fact, I won a State title in both IDPA and USPSA. But one shot from a wooden boot gripped 340 firing a Corbon .357 caused severe pain and physical injury. It took 2-3 weeks for my hand to fully recover.

If YOU can shoot the load from that gun without enduring severe pain, then more power to you. I still want to see the video. Say, all 5 rounds on a sheet of paper in 2 seconds flat. Repeat 4 times.

I know I'll never recommend that load in that gun to anyone, except maybe a condescending arrogant putz know-it-all.

 

[CraigC]

To make an irrational generalization that those who feel pain from it is lazy is a different thing.

I never used that word and that is not really what I meant. Nor did I intend to be "condescending with a lack of social grace". Although I can see how 'some' people could take it that way. Folks can get their feelings hurt all they want, it is undeniable fact that recoil tolerance is built, not born. Both physical and mental. Proper technique is learned and the higher the recoil level, the more critical it becomes. Like I said, it is not built overnight. It takes time and a lot of practice to be able to shoot heavy recoiling handguns accurately. More time and practice than anything lesser. If you've never done it, then you simply do not know. It's not condescending, macho, elitist or anything else. It's true and anyone who spends a lot of time with heavy .44's, .45's, .454's, .475's and .500's knows it. We're not talking about IDPA and USPSA. Use an isosceles stance shooting a .500 and you'll pay for it. F1 drivers are not automatically masters of rock crawlers and monster trucks. Different game, same concept.

Same logic behind starting new shooters with .22's instead of .44's. Did YOU learn to shoot with .357's?

 

[TestPilot]

Craig C, if you have forgotten, my original response was in response to 1858, not you. I was explaining to you why I responded to 1858 they way I did.

 

[David E]

Craig C, I anxiously await your video firing a 340 with Corbons rapid fire, as outlined above.

You're also confusing "proper technique" for defensive shooting with "proper technique" for slow, single shots using the hand cannon calibers. It was with this in mind when I referenced Keith earlier. He wanted the gun to rise high in recoil. What works hunting may not work in defensive rapid fire.

Although I recently punched out a one hole group with a 4" .500 magnum using my "inferior" Modern Isosceles....but I did it slow fire. And, interestingly, that single shot with the 340 hurt far more than 20 shots of factory rounds from the .500 did.

 

[TestPilot]

Same logic behind starting new shooters with .22's instead of .44's. Did YOU learn to shoot with .357's?

Some advocate this.

I only agree with it partially.

The first pistol I've ever fired was a 45ACP. I sucked at recoil control, but it was not painful, and even then I knew that with improvement in technique, I'd be able to control it.

Then I learned mostly with 9mm. It is NOT becaue I thought "I'll start with 9mm then upgrade to 45ACP." I intended to use 9mm for self-defense. That's why.

Then I moved to 40S&W. Recoil feels stronger. After shooting tousands of 40S&W. It still feels stronger. But, I control it better becaues of better technique. I don't claim to be a master class shooter, but when I am shooting head sized steel target at 35 yards at the range people seem to notice because most of the time the only people hitting it is me with a M&P40 and may be another guy holding a pistol caliber carbine.

What made me shoot 40S&W better? Nope. Not shooing 9mm. I got better at shooting and controlling 40S&W because I shot 40S&W.

If you are saying start with weaker ammo to overcome psychological intimidation, then yes, I agree that it can work. But, it will not always change pain caused by laws of physics.

 

[CraigC]

You're also confusing "proper technique" for defensive shooting with "proper technique" for slow, single shots using the hand cannon calibers. It was with this in mind when I referenced Keith earlier. He wanted the gun to rise high in recoil. What works hunting may not work in defensive rapid fire.

I'm not confusing anything buddy. The concept is the same. Take it or leave it, I'm not arguing about what I know from experience to be true, with people who don't have a clue. I guess nobody ever overcame anything that hurt the first time the did it.

 

[David E]

Well, "buddy," since we're being all friendly-like, you're failing to address any of the points I raise, which is quite interesting.

Does your "experience" include firing Corbon .357's accurately, rapid fire from a scandium J-frame? I didn't think so.

If I'm mistaken, then please post your video so that we mere mortals may learn.

 

[CraigC]

No, I don't buy factory ammo and I completely disregard the .357 as a cartridge. My experience entails 23yrs of the .44Mag and above, working up to several hundred rounds in a session. I don't know why you keep riding this J-frame business, as if nothing else applies.

I've thought about doing some videos but decided that I'll probably never go to the trouble. Sometimes I wonder why I bother to even post at all. Like this nonsense.

So is your basic point that practice does not produce recoil tolerance???

 

[Art Eatman]

Excessive pointless hostility and snark. Not at all High Road.