Ash
Member
Mosins have a cartridge interrupter so that rim-lock is not a problem.
Mosin vs Mauser Which would you choose?
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Ash said:
Three of the four that I owned had cartridge interrupters that didn't work correctly. Clean, stripped of dirt and cosmoline, still didn't work. I had to load them carefully.
One Finn M-39 worked perfectly though. It was a great rifle and I share your respect for the Finnish guns. It was one fine piece of hardware and I should have kept it. I should have oiled it and put it in storage until I got my head on straight. But I foolishly sold it.
On the topic of rimlock, even the venerable Lee Enfield can be temporarily put out of the fight by it. You have to load the stripper clips the right way or you'll lock them up too. They're still great rifles and if I had to choose a WWII bolt action to go to a fight with, it would be a No. 4 Enfield with a bunch of loaded stripper clips over either a Mauser or a Mosin. But like Mosins, they have their quirks that you have to deal with if you're going to enjoy them.
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Kurt S.
Member
My opinion is that it's a tie. I have 3 different Mosin models and 2 different Mauser models and I love all of them.
Here in the mountains of west Texas, I guess it doesn't really get the type of damp cold that would affect performance.
Here in the mountains of west Texas, I guess it doesn't really get the type of damp cold that would affect performance.
longshooter99
Member
I currently have 3 Mauser's, a 1943 Kar98k, a 1926 M93 Spanish Mauser, and most recently a 1918 Gewher 98. I also have a Mosin and SMLE 
Out of all them I prefer the Mausers. They handle and shoot great and if I REALLY need ammo i got plenty of .270 casings that can be trimmed. On top of that, they make great custom guns but only if some heartless monster has already butchered the poor thing. Most of you do have a point on the Mosins though, i can get 20 rounds of surplus ammo for $5 from a local guy where as 8mm ammo runs $20-30 a box!
Out of all them I prefer the Mausers. They handle and shoot great and if I REALLY need ammo i got plenty of .270 casings that can be trimmed. On top of that, they make great custom guns but only if some heartless monster has already butchered the poor thing. Most of you do have a point on the Mosins though, i can get 20 rounds of surplus ammo for $5 from a local guy where as 8mm ammo runs $20-30 a box!I can whack you on the shoulder and shout "boom" for less money than Mosin ammo costs. That seems to be the big appeal. Dang I hate sitting beside someone with one of those cannons at the range. I might as well forget trying to hit anything. My accuracy will be just as bad as that 3-4 inch group size mentioned here. I much prefer .3-.4 inch groups. I don't have any desire to have pain inflicted on me either. And I don't have some need to make sure everyone around me is forced to deal with my shock waves and super booms.
I almost bought a MN once because of the price. To me it's like cherry bombs with rocks attached though. They may be good enough fo hunting but there's more to shooting than that for me. Ordinarily I'd say live and let live but those things are a real nuisance to everyone else on the line at the gun range. Nothing personal. I understand the appeal. I just wish people would think about what they're doing to the other shooters when they fire those cheap rounds (which means they can sit there for hours banging away).
This is the first time I've brought this up and it will likely be the last. But a MN is a nuisance to other shooters IMO. At least they are at the gun range. Again nothing personal. Just my 2 cents.
Ash
Member
So, any high powered rifle is a bother? Those pesky mosin guys should just stay home and leave "real" shooters to their task?
Mosins with feed or other problems these days are those which went through the war and then went through the government refurbishment program. They are often in need of detail cleaning to remove the cosmoline. Were there an inherent problem with the design, the Finns would have problems, too. The Finns, as far as I know, never made an interrupter (just as they didn't make receivers) and so these parts were Russian, French, or American made.
Mosins with feed or other problems these days are those which went through the war and then went through the government refurbishment program. They are often in need of detail cleaning to remove the cosmoline. Were there an inherent problem with the design, the Finns would have problems, too. The Finns, as far as I know, never made an interrupter (just as they didn't make receivers) and so these parts were Russian, French, or American made.
You guys are missing a few points....first is surplus, yes human life is VERY cheap in Stalin's Russia, but the guns did work....and work well. Don't base your feelings on the 91/30 on the few issues you see on guns that have been sent here. There are two reasons this stupid thing is still being used in wars around the world....one is it is there....the other is it just flat works.
Two don't judge how well the thing shoots by those same 80yr old rifles....if that german POW did not pack the cosmoline in it quite right, and was found out....he just...must have escaped...yea that's it....there are hundreds of thousands left to take his place.
The soviet stuff did work....and work well, people talk down the SVT series....as being just not that good....sorry if it was such junk why did both the germans and the finns grab everyone they could lay their hands on....why did the germans make a manual in german on how to care for the thing....they loved them.....it was just not the gun for the "peasant farmer solider" in Russia. The 91/30 worked was easy to use and easy to make....perfect for Stalin....tons of people he needed tons of guns to put in their hands.
And I would bet that if you put your Mauser (and I own one as well and enjoy it) in a deep freeze at -40 lube it with what was used you will not be able to work the bolt. Just like all things german it really is a better tool for putting bullets on a target....most of the time. But if you have 1 and they have 100 no matter what you are going to lose.
Same thing with the T34 super weapon....it was a total pos....and buy the book the myth of the T34....it is a bit spendy so be ready for that. You would think that a tank that had an engine that required overhaul at under 100hrs would be a negative.....but when they usually only lived for 70hrs it is not really a problem....just make 4 for every one you lose.
Two don't judge how well the thing shoots by those same 80yr old rifles....if that german POW did not pack the cosmoline in it quite right, and was found out....he just...must have escaped...yea that's it....there are hundreds of thousands left to take his place.
The soviet stuff did work....and work well, people talk down the SVT series....as being just not that good....sorry if it was such junk why did both the germans and the finns grab everyone they could lay their hands on....why did the germans make a manual in german on how to care for the thing....they loved them.....it was just not the gun for the "peasant farmer solider" in Russia. The 91/30 worked was easy to use and easy to make....perfect for Stalin....tons of people he needed tons of guns to put in their hands.
And I would bet that if you put your Mauser (and I own one as well and enjoy it) in a deep freeze at -40 lube it with what was used you will not be able to work the bolt. Just like all things german it really is a better tool for putting bullets on a target....most of the time. But if you have 1 and they have 100 no matter what you are going to lose.
Same thing with the T34 super weapon....it was a total pos....and buy the book the myth of the T34....it is a bit spendy so be ready for that. You would think that a tank that had an engine that required overhaul at under 100hrs would be a negative.....but when they usually only lived for 70hrs it is not really a problem....just make 4 for every one you lose.
plmitch
Member
Mosin.......
carbine85
Member
I already weighed in on my pro Mauser vote. I just wanted to point out that I haven't ever seen the Mosin listed as a top 10 rifle in any type of report or story. The Mauser, AK47, M1 Garand and AR15 always seem to make the top 10, just saying.
I think the Mosin looses out when it comes to overall quality, fit, finish and normal accuracy.
I think the Mosin looses out when it comes to overall quality, fit, finish and normal accuracy.
morcey2
Member
Cee Zee, I don't fault you for your opinion on the guns in general, but the muzzle blast/concussion from the short mosins are nothing when compared to all the uber-magnums with a muzzle-brake. I'd take the mosin blast every day compared to that. Even a brake on an AR-15 is significantly more annoying.
When you get into the longer rifles, M39, M91/30, M91 and such, they're no more excessive than every other high-powered rifle out there. My 1903 and all of my 8x57 Mausers are worse than any of my M91/30s in that sense.
If it takes someone buying a $150 gun to get them started in shooting, I'm all for it. Also, all of my mosins are closer to 1"-2" shooters. My son-in-law can consistently get 1" 5-shot-groups from one of my 91/30s all day long with handloads. The 3"-4" groups are usually from surplus and most of the refurbs can shoot much better than that with better ammunition.
I have a couple of guns that will shoot sub-MOA, but they aren't nearly as fun as the milsurps when taking new people shooting. Proper hearing protection and a slip-on recoil pad is good enough for most of them. That, or IMR Trail Boss loads or "The Load" loads so the youngun's can shoot the big guns.
Anyway, I'll be sure not to stand near you at the range when I'm shooting them.
Matt
When you get into the longer rifles, M39, M91/30, M91 and such, they're no more excessive than every other high-powered rifle out there. My 1903 and all of my 8x57 Mausers are worse than any of my M91/30s in that sense.
If it takes someone buying a $150 gun to get them started in shooting, I'm all for it. Also, all of my mosins are closer to 1"-2" shooters. My son-in-law can consistently get 1" 5-shot-groups from one of my 91/30s all day long with handloads. The 3"-4" groups are usually from surplus and most of the refurbs can shoot much better than that with better ammunition.
I have a couple of guns that will shoot sub-MOA, but they aren't nearly as fun as the milsurps when taking new people shooting. Proper hearing protection and a slip-on recoil pad is good enough for most of them. That, or IMR Trail Boss loads or "The Load" loads so the youngun's can shoot the big guns.
Anyway, I'll be sure not to stand near you at the range when I'm shooting them.
Matt
I know that's true. I don't hate MN's. I just think the carbines in particular are pretty hard to sit next to at the range. The concussion makes it really hard to aim and hit what you're shooting at. It seems like every time I get ready to pull the trigger the MN next to me goes off and I miss my target by a good bit. I guess I was just venting a little about it. Like I said I've never complained about it before and don't intend to do it again. But I pay to be part of the club the same as the guys with MN carbines and the guys with the uber magnums with muzzle brakes too. I'm glad people get to shoot what they want. I don't have a fix for the problem either. I certainly wouldn't ban the big boomers from the range. And I know their history and how well they worked in WWII and before especially in the super cold weather. Like I said I nearly bought one myself. They are a great battle rifle for the reasons already mentioned. They work like most Russian stuff. They aren't super refined but they work when it's really cold especially and that says a lot. They aren't junk rifles by any means. I guess it just sorta got to me to see someone talk about getting a 3-4 inch group at 100 yards with a carbine because it causes me to get the same kind of results when I sit beside one at the range. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I guess I was hoping people would think about this sort of thing when they go to shoot their big guns. I probably got carried away thinking about my last experience trying to shoot beside one. I was shooting for a contest on a web site and I couldn't get any kind of grouping at all because of the big thud going off as soon as I was ready to shoot. That shooter was firing off rounds as fast as he could (people can afford to do that with a MN) which didn't leave me any time to get off a good shot.
Oh well. No insult intended. Just venting I guess. I saw Enemy At The Gates and I know what happened in Finland in the Winter War. I know who the "White Death" is (Simo Häyhä). There's a lot to be said for the MN. But they still keep others from being able to hit their targets when they're sitting beside a MN carbine at the range. Enough said on the subject by me.
Lets see......WW2.....Russians/Mosin Nagant 1...German/Mauser0
The main problem with the sticky Mosin Nagant bolts is the ammo. The green steel case lacquer coated ammo will always stick after a few rounds. Switch to the copper washed or brass cased ammo and the sticking problem will go away.......chris3
The main problem with the sticky Mosin Nagant bolts is the ammo. The green steel case lacquer coated ammo will always stick after a few rounds. Switch to the copper washed or brass cased ammo and the sticking problem will go away.......chris3
I think one thing that can be said for the Mosin is the price in comparison for what you get. I remember them selling for $59 each a few years ago... I wish I'd been smart enough to buy a dozen of them then. But even now I'm seeing them around $119 locally... where else can you get a functioning historical rifle that's cheap to shoot for so little money? Especially one with such a big honkin' bayonet?
I think if I only had room for one milsurp, it would be a hard choice between a Finn M39 and a No. 4 Enfield. But if you only have $150 to spend or you plan to collect them all anyhow, then I'd definitely say try a 91/30.
I think if I only had room for one milsurp, it would be a hard choice between a Finn M39 and a No. 4 Enfield. But if you only have $150 to spend or you plan to collect them all anyhow, then I'd definitely say try a 91/30.
Mauser hands down. Regardless of the pros & cons of each rifle, real or imagined, the Mauser is a better design. Stronger, more ergonomic and proven battlefield tough. The Mausers that froze up during the Russian winter did so because of the inexperience of the soldier using it, not because it didn't have good clearance. Military Mausers have plenty of clearance for reliable functioning.
Mosins are battlefield tough but awkward to operate and while they work, are not among the best designed bolt actions. The Finns used Mosins against the Russians for one reason and one reason only- Logistics. The Finns could not secure a sure supply of arms & ammo from the European countries and were refused support by the U.S. Knowing that an invasion by the Soviets was coming, they traded off their Mausers to get Mosins so they could raid the Soviet's supplies and use their arms and munitions against them.
The Finns were very clever in battle. They felled trees to block Soviet convoys and tank columns and cut them up piece meal with Molotov Cocktails. They lured one tank command out onto a frozen lake and used explosives to break the ice and sink them.
The only reason the Mosin is popular in the U.S. is cost. Mosins have long been available in this country but remained a disdained curiosity until the prices of surplus Mausers, SMLEs & '03s rose as sources of rifles and ammo started drying up. If shooters had to pay the same cost for the 7.62x54 as they did for other calibers, Mosins would remain rotting away in abandoned warehouses
Mosins are battlefield tough but awkward to operate and while they work, are not among the best designed bolt actions. The Finns used Mosins against the Russians for one reason and one reason only- Logistics. The Finns could not secure a sure supply of arms & ammo from the European countries and were refused support by the U.S. Knowing that an invasion by the Soviets was coming, they traded off their Mausers to get Mosins so they could raid the Soviet's supplies and use their arms and munitions against them.
The Finns were very clever in battle. They felled trees to block Soviet convoys and tank columns and cut them up piece meal with Molotov Cocktails. They lured one tank command out onto a frozen lake and used explosives to break the ice and sink them.
The only reason the Mosin is popular in the U.S. is cost. Mosins have long been available in this country but remained a disdained curiosity until the prices of surplus Mausers, SMLEs & '03s rose as sources of rifles and ammo started drying up. If shooters had to pay the same cost for the 7.62x54 as they did for other calibers, Mosins would remain rotting away in abandoned warehouses
Speedo66
Member
There are myriad reasons why Mausers are world renown as first class firearms, and often copied to this day, while nobody heard of Mosins until they started flooding in as cheap imports.
Ignition Override
Member
MistWolf: Quite true, and after the news got out that the Finns stopped the much larger numbers of Soviet troops from taking most of Helsinki, Hitler concluded that his forces would have no trouble beating the Soviet Union (Lebensraum).
LAGS
Member
My dad said the Chinese had no problems with the Mosins they were using at the Frozen Chosen in Korea in 1950.
I have had Mosins long before I ever got into Mausers, partly because of the way my dad spoke about their reliability.
But now, I do see the advantages of the Mauser, and just would trust them more just like the 1903 Springfields based on the Mauser design.
I have had Mosins long before I ever got into Mausers, partly because of the way my dad spoke about their reliability.
But now, I do see the advantages of the Mauser, and just would trust them more just like the 1903 Springfields based on the Mauser design.
dagger dog
Member
You can bet the troops using the Mauser knew how to keep it running in cold weather !
Never shot a Mosin, really don't mind if I ever shoot one.
1903 Springfield, Winchester M 70, Ruger M 77 MKII, all are Mauser knock offs.
How many Mosin designs do you see on the market ?
Never shot a Mosin, really don't mind if I ever shoot one.
1903 Springfield, Winchester M 70, Ruger M 77 MKII, all are Mauser knock offs.
How many Mosin designs do you see on the market ?
Or could it be that the western allies pounded german production into the ground......no that could not have a thing to do with it.
The western powers invaded Russia just after the first world war. If France and England did not declare war on Germany after Poland the outcome in the east would have been much different.
Never shot one....really don't mind if you ever do....sounds like your knowledge on the subject extends into volumes.
Yes they knew how to keep it running....urinate on it.
Now I am not saying the mosin is the best bolt battle rifle of all time, but in the rough and wild temp changes in Russia it was more likely to keep working then the mauser.
Was a SVT40 better then a G43...well if you ask a german or a finn they would have said yes. Do you think that in the german-finn relationship that 98k would have been available to the finns....yes....even before the start of the german soviet war. But we read little of german arms in finland. They made due with the captured soviet ground equipment, and people reguard the finnish weapons of such outstanding quality.....sorry to say that most just got picked up and used.
Was the Mauser design a "better" gun (whatever better means) overall....yea I think so....was it better in Russia, No.
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kBob
Member
Well I would have liked a Mauser- Nagant
Between a K98k and a 91/30 I would have picked the K98k
Between a 98 in a long format and an M38 I would have picked the M38
Between a K98k and an M44 I would have gone Hmmm let me think.
You see I used to be a foot mobile Infantryman and I do not want to carry extra weight or length.
I think a K98k pretty much has everything over a MN whatever except for one thing (two actually) the sights (front and rear) Sorry Mauser guys for combat the MS sights are head and shoulders above the Mauser sights.
Now a K98k with MS sights? That would be nice if one were limited to a Bolt gun.
Today if I was offered a rifle for free and free ammo for life and could find a pristine K98k with laminate stock and ZF41 rail I would take it over any MS including a sniper.
On the other hand the days of cheap Mausers and nickel a round Mauser ammo (I thought it expensive back then) are gone.
I would not mind a counter bored M38 in decent shape or a M44 in decent shooting shape and if it was all I could afford a 91/30 would not be bad though one of the Finn rifles would be better than a 91/30.
I believe a MS is actually more complex than a 98 series Mauser in number of parts and even durability of those parts. Take apart both bolts and have a look, then take apart the magazines. If Mauser actions are in fact prone to freezing I have to wonder what made the even more carefully made Swede 96 series work for the Swedes..........or for that matter the M40 98 actions issued to their heavy machinegun crews?
My even more neener-neener answer would have been neither if a M1903A3 and ammo were available.
-kBob
Between a K98k and a 91/30 I would have picked the K98k
Between a 98 in a long format and an M38 I would have picked the M38
Between a K98k and an M44 I would have gone Hmmm let me think.
You see I used to be a foot mobile Infantryman and I do not want to carry extra weight or length.
I think a K98k pretty much has everything over a MN whatever except for one thing (two actually) the sights (front and rear) Sorry Mauser guys for combat the MS sights are head and shoulders above the Mauser sights.
Now a K98k with MS sights? That would be nice if one were limited to a Bolt gun.
Today if I was offered a rifle for free and free ammo for life and could find a pristine K98k with laminate stock and ZF41 rail I would take it over any MS including a sniper.
On the other hand the days of cheap Mausers and nickel a round Mauser ammo (I thought it expensive back then) are gone.
I would not mind a counter bored M38 in decent shape or a M44 in decent shooting shape and if it was all I could afford a 91/30 would not be bad though one of the Finn rifles would be better than a 91/30.
I believe a MS is actually more complex than a 98 series Mauser in number of parts and even durability of those parts. Take apart both bolts and have a look, then take apart the magazines. If Mauser actions are in fact prone to freezing I have to wonder what made the even more carefully made Swede 96 series work for the Swedes..........or for that matter the M40 98 actions issued to their heavy machinegun crews?
My even more neener-neener answer would have been neither if a M1903A3 and ammo were available.
-kBob
dagger dog
Member
Well now you got me *&^%$#@! off.
I wonder if the foreskin froze to the receiver during the defrosting ?
I call BS on that process, besides being unnecessary it would have been highly unsanitary!
I wonder if the foreskin froze to the receiver during the defrosting ?
I call BS on that process, besides being unnecessary it would have been highly unsanitary!
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