Federal Legislation to roll back state laws

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I like Tohy k's spirited response, but nevertheless RKBA is a civil right. It wasn't granted by the Constitution, it was guaranteed by the Constitution, just as he says. But it is a civil right. And just because its guaranteed by the Constitution, it doesn't mean the guarantee is iron-clad. It means that if you have the will and money to push the issue to the Supreme Court, the odds are in your favor. It's unfair, but it's the way it is.

Frank is right that SCOTUS gutted Privileges and Immunities, and that the federal government has enumerated and limited powers. It's not easy to justify a lot of federal laws. It should be harder than it is. Don't get me started on how the Interstate Commerce clause has been bent and stretched beyond all recognition.

Most of the people here seem to want a less intrusive federal government. Does it make sense to want them to pass a more intrusive set of laws that happen to favor us? That seems a little unreasonable to me.

42 USC 1983 allows people to sue government employees who attempt to deprive them of rights guaranteed by law or the Constitution. It's a nice bit of law that makes some evildoers personally liable for their actions. As far as I know, it has never been used against legislators who conspire to infringe RKBA. I suppose there is a reason for that. Personally, I'd enjoy watching a 1983 action against the aldermen in Chicago, if such is possible.
 
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denton said:
...As far as I know, it has never been used against legislators who conspire to infringe RKBA. I suppose there is a reason for that. Personally, I'd enjoy watching a 1983 action against the aldermen in Chicago,...
There's the old and well established doctrine of legislative immunity. Basically, a legislator may not be sued for actions performed and decisions made within the scope of his responsibilities as a legislator. This principle has a long history under the Common Law and is enshrined in the Constitutions of a majority of the States.

Legislative immunity is arguably essential to effective implementation of the separation of powers and system of checks and balances core to our democratic republic. As the Supreme Court said in Tenney v. Brandhove, 341 U.S. 367, 71 S.Ct. 783, 95 L.Ed. 1019 (1951), at 372 -- 374:
......The privilege of legislators to be free from arrest or civil process for what they do or say in legislative proceedings has taproots in the Parliamentary struggles of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. As Parliament achieved increasing independence from the Crown, its statement of the privilege grew stronger. In 1523, Sir Thomas More could make only a tentative claim. Roper, Life of Sir Thomas More, in More's Utopia (Adams ed.) 10. In 1668, after a long and bitter struggle, Parliament finally laid the ghost of Charles I, who had prosecuted Sir John Elliot and others for 'seditious' speeches in Parliament. Proceedings against Sir John Elliot, 3 How. St.Tr., 294, 332. In 1689, the Bill of Rights declared in unequivocal language: 'That the Freedom of Speech, and Debates or Proceedings in Parliament, ought not to be impeached or questioned in any Court or Place out of Parliament.' 1 Wm. & Mary, Sess. 2, c. II. See Stockdale v. Hansard, 9 Ad. & El. 1, 113—114 (1839).

Freedom of speech and action in the legislature was taken as a matter of course by those who severed the Colonies from the Crown and founded our Nation. It was deemed so essential for representatives of the people that it was written into the Articles of Confederation and later into the Constitution. Article V of the Articles of Confederation is quite close to the English Bill of Rights: 'Freedom of speech and debate in Congress shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Congress * * *.' Article I, § 6, of the Constitution provides: '* * * for any Speech or Debate in either House, (the Senators and Representatives) shall not be questioned in any other Place.'

The reason for the privilege is clear. It was well summarized by James Wilson, an influential member of the Committee of Detail which was responsible for the provision in the Federal Constitution. 'In order to enable and encourage a representative of the public to discharge his public trust with firmness and success, it is indispensably necessary, that he should enjoy the fullest liberty of speech, and that he should be protected from the resentment of every one, however powerful, to whom the exercise of that liberty may occasion offense.' II Works of James Wilson (Andrews ed. 1896) 38. See the statement of the reason for the privilege in the Report from the Select Committee on the Official Secrets Acts (House of Commons, 1939) xiv.

The provision in the United States Constitution was a reflection of political principles already firmly established in the States. Three State Constitutions adopted before the Federal Constitution specifically protected the privilege. The Maryland Declaration of Rights, Nov. 3, 1776, provided: 'That freedom of speech, and debates or proceedings in the Legislature, ought not to be impeached in any other court or judicature.' Art. VIII. The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 provided 'The freedom of deliberation, speech and debate, in either house of the legislature, is so essential to the rights of the people, that it cannot be the foundation of any accusation or prosecution, action, or complaint, in any other court or place whatsoever.' Part I, Art. XXI. Chief Justice Parsons gave the following gloss to this provision in Coffin v. Coffin, 1808, 4 Mass. 1, 27:

These privileges are thus secured, not with the intention of protecting the members against prosecutions for their own benefit, but to support the rights of the people, by enabling their representatives to execute the functions of their office without fear of prosecutions, civil or criminal. I therefore think that the article ought not to be construed strictly, but liberally, that the full design of it may be answered....

Some may complain that this frees legislators from accountability for their acts. But our system was designed to hold them accountable at the ballot box. If we fail to do so, it's our fault.
 
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This may well be the best definition of civil\political rights that I have ever seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_and_political_rights
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[FONT="Tahoma"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Civil and political rights are a class of rights that protect individuals' freedom from infringement by governments and private organizations, and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression.[/FONT][/FONT]
We already have what we need in the Constitution to short circuit gun control. The problem is that its been watered down and allowed to atrophy. The nonjudicial avenue to pursue alongside repeal and challenging of bad laws is education.
 
Most of the people here seem to want a less intrusive federal government. Does it make sense to want them to pass a more intrusive set of laws that happen to favor us? That seems a little unreasonable to me.

I think that you are looking at this the wrong way. If we were talking about a law punishing, say, media outlets that attack the 2nd amendment, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly. However, if the federal government would work to restrict not the actions of people, but of state governments, in areas protected by the constitution, I would disagree, and say that that is exactly what the federal government should be doing.


And btw, this pandora's box is already open, generally in ways that do not favor generally conservative ideals, look at thins like immigration and voting rights. This is not some thing where we have to worry about what could happen if we start going in that direction, the other side already has.
 
Did not the chief Law Enforcement Officer of the Land say, today, that state AG's do not have to obey the law?

Cuts both ways.
 
Originally Posted by Texshooter
Did not the chief Law Enforcement Officer of the Land say, today, that state AG's do not have to obey the law?...


I don't know. Did he?

Do you have a source? Can you link to the quote? Exactly what did he say and in what context?
It was about Gay Marriages

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...to-drop-defense-gay-marriage-bans-amid-court/


"Attorney General Eric Holder has given the nod to his state counterparts that they do not have to defend laws against constitutional court challenges if they consider them discriminatory -- effectively giving the green light for states to stop defending bans on gay marriage."

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Midwest said:
Originally Posted by Texshooter
Did not the chief Law Enforcement Officer of the Land say, today, that state AG's do not have to obey the law?...


I don't know. Did he?

Do you have a source? Can you link to the quote? Exactly what did he say and in what context?
It was about Gay Marriages

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...to-drop-defense-gay-marriage-bans-amid-court/


"Attorney General Eric Holder has given the nod to his state counterparts that they do not have to defend laws against constitutional court challenges if they consider them discriminatory -- effectively giving the green light for states to stop defending bans on gay marriage."
Thank you. So Holder really did not say that state Attorneys General did not have to obey the law.

What he was talking about is the inherent discretion of an Attorney General to decide how to use available resources. Of course if the body politic doesn't like how a state Attorney General exercises that discretion, it can exercise its authority at the ballot box.
 
There are some truly terrible state laws out there regarding gun. Mag limits, ban lists, SAFE Act, most of CA, etc.

Those states are probably not going to change any time soon.

Any ideas on federal legislation that could weaken the state laws?

The fed gov't can't directly tell states they can't pass these laws, so needs to be indirect.

It is also easier for the fed gov't to DO something/enact more regulation (frequently thru the commerce clause) than to say something can"t be done.

One idea is to use conditional money. Fed does this in many areas: "Here is 100 million dollars for your state, but you have to do X, Y, and Z to get it."

Any other methods come to mind?


To weaken state law would be to disregard 10A. Personally, I wouldn't want that to happen anymore than seeing states disregard 2A, which some do without reservation. States have constitutions and legislators just like the fed does. As far as I'm concerned the fed doesn't have the answers to problems that are local and unique to some states. If you would live a month in every state and talk to people you would understand this. Also, people in different states have different opinions about lots of different things. For instance you don't see many people open carry (LEO excluded) in a grocery store in NJ. You will however see it in AZ. Being from NJ you might think this is just about the most irresponsible and crazy thing you have ever seen. If you were from WY you wouldn't even look twice.

Big gov't is expensive and intrusive. Best just to try and keep your own house clean and not worry too much about your neighbors.
 
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This Letter in the Washington Times today. This is apparently the latest "liberal" line on suppressing news media unfriendly to the administration.

www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/25/letter-to-the-editor-first-amendment-hijinks/

Stay tuned so see how the "progessive" press adapts to having federal "monitors" in their newsrooms. Also note the writer's inclusion of freedom of speech in the "rights" that can be limited or suppressed by Executive Order. And, needless to say, all the rest of the Bill of Rights as well.

Jim
 
Some interesting replies.

So, if a bill came before congress that read...

"No state or locality shall prohibit purchase or possession of any firearm based on magazine capacity."

Many of you would want a "no" vote because you don't want federal involvement?

Is that accurate, or am i misunderstanding?
 
The Constitution is not a state's rights issue. Civil rights apply throughout the country. Not just in states that feel like recognizing them.
While we all agree that the powers and duties delegated to the Federal government are limited, ensuring that all citizens of the United States have the same rights, and ensuring the states abide by the contract they signed when they joined this Union IS one of their jobs. Whether they currently want to do it or not is a different matter.

This is exactly right.

States don't get to infringe upon constitutional rights.
 
Some interesting replies.

So, if a bill came before congress that read...

"No state or locality shall prohibit purchase or possession of any firearm based on magazine capacity."

Many of you would want a "no" vote because you don't want federal involvement?

Is that accurate, or am i misunderstanding?


That's the old "have your cake and eat it to" scenario. I would want a no vote. I see no reason why congress needs to write any new legislation regarding gun control, for or against. That kind of legislation would assume that the states can't deal with it. If the voters in CT want more gun control I say let them have as much of it as they can constitutionally have. When they cross over that line like they did in DC, Chicago and San Diego county the fed courts will set them straight. Gun legislation is not congresses strong suit. All you have to do is look at AWB (1994) to see that they need to leave it alone. That solved nothing and neither would a mag bill.

Bottom line is I don't trust them.
 
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