questions on an old damascus SXS 12ga

coosbaycreep · Apr 20, 2014

I've been searching the net trying to find more info about this old shotgun:

I can't make out what the proof marks are for sure, and haven't found any that looked similar, but I'm thinking it might be Belgian. It has "JN" stamped on the barrels, which could mean it was made by Noisette according to one website I looked at if it is belgian. I don't see the usual belgium proof marks though. Any ideas on where and when it was made?

Most everything I've read about damascus barreled shotguns said that they're unsafe to shoot, even with blackpowder. The gun is obviously in rough shape, but the chamber doesn't look too pitted, and the barrels lock up tight. I certainly wouldn't try shooting BP shells through it, but what about a .38 chamber adapter using light .38spl loads (loaded with trailboss)? Do you think that would be safe? What about the chamber adapter using a .38 loaded with one of those rubber bullets and just a primer, no powder? I can't find any good info about what kind of pressure a BP 12ga shell generates compared to a small pistol primer. If I do fire it with a light .38 load or just a primer powered rubber bullet, I'll still pull the trigger with a spring, at least the first time.

One of the hammers has been replaced, and I don't even think it's long enough to contact the firing pin, so only one barrel will likely fire. The hammers and triggers both feel good though.

The solder that holds the thing that the forend attaches to must have broke years ago, and my grandpa tried using JB weld to reattach it, which apparently didn't work very well, so now it has bailing wire keeping the forend on.

I know it's basically just a wall hanger at this point, but it's been in our family for decades, and I'd really like to shoot it, even if it's only one barrel using a .38spl rubber bullet.

thanks

Onmilo · Apr 20, 2014

I think it would look cool hanging on a wall.
It is impossible to tell if a damascus barrelled gun is safe from pictures alone.
The bores need to be scoped at high magnification and magnaflux checked if available before a clean bill of shootability could be assessed.

The hammer could be drilled and a new sear stud hole piece installed by welding or threading to the lockplate and that would correctly align the hammer to contact the firing pin.

All this is fair easy work for a good gunsmith but it wouldn't come cheap and frankly, if the gun isn't an original Greener, Purdy, Savage, etc. you probably won't want to foot the bill.

hartcreek · Apr 21, 2014

The damascus barrels would not concern me BUT what ever is under that JB weld does.

To many of the so called shot gunners on web sites any more are lawyer scared. Magna fluxing is easy and you can do it yourself with a large horse shoe magnet and the flakes or even some steel shavings.

What would happen if someone online said go ahead and shoot it is some yahwho would grab some modern turkey loads and blow half their face and arm off.

I would scrape all that JB crap out and wire wheel the area and resolder the barrels then magna flux it and if I did not find that the barrel had seperated work up some low pressure 7000 psi or less BP loads.

You didnt state what length shell it uses and if you have the equipment to fix it and load for it so you can play with it.

It obviously was fired at one time. The question now is is it safe to fire in its current condition and the answer to that is NO. Can it be made safe that depends on the barrels if they are not seperated then yes. Can you do it......... I suspect not could I do it....no problem I can solder that thing up better then when it was new. Would I pay someone to do it No way.

Am I afraid to fire it after I had fixed it......Nope I aint that timid and I am more then confident in my mechanical abilities.

1911 guy · Apr 21, 2014

DIY magnaflux is possible, and so is buying cleaner, penetrant and developer for a "real" NDI.

Determining make and model will determine, like Onmillo said, whether or not it's even worth it.

I understand the attraction of restoring an older shotgun, I have my great grandfathers Springfield SXS 12ga. It, too, was a little rough.

SDC · Apr 21, 2014

The proofs look like the older style of black powder English proofs, and you may be able to read a name on either the rib or the sideplates; regardless, this is the sort of thing that really shouldn't be fired.

oneounceload · Apr 21, 2014

I seriously doubt this is chambered for modern length hulls which would lead to serious overpressure in the forcing cone. From the looks of those, barrels, you need a QUALIFIED gunsmith who knows old guns, and especially older European ones with Damascus steel, to verify its ability to do more than hang on the wall

This pic says those proof marks were from 1875 to 1887:

http://www.vintageguns.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_08431.jpg

natman · Apr 21, 2014

Firing a Damascus barreled gun is an iffy proposition even under the best conditions. This gun is not in best condition. It's very old, it's well worn, it's rusted and it's got some very dubious repairs. In short, it's been rode hard and put away wet. A lot.

I wouldn't consider firing it with anything, ever.

oneounceload · Apr 21, 2014

^^^ Agreed, not even with a mild blank. There is no way to determine just how weak all the joints and seams are.

coosbaycreep · Apr 21, 2014

Thanks for all the replies.

After looking at those english proof marks, I'm pretty sure this is an english gun.

here's a link to the chamber adapter I have:
http://www.shotgunadapter.com/shotgunadapter_004.htm

The adapter is for 3" chambers, and I'm sure this gun has a 2 5/8" or whatever the old shotguns have, but the adapter still fits fine anyway.

My theory (which is probably wrong) is that the chamber adapter should keep the barrel from exploding. I just don't know how strong the lock is though. I've pretty much made up my mind that I'm going to fire this thing next time I go shooting regardless of how rough it is though. It has almost no monetary value in the condition it's in whether it was made by a quality maker or not, and we plan on keeping it for sentimental reasons anyway.

My plan is to secure it to the roof rack of my car, tie a string to the trigger, and duck down on the other side of my car or maybe even from inside my car and pull the trigger. If it doesn't blow up, great. If it does, we can still hang it on the wall in pieces. I have no intention of ever firing it from my shoulder even if it doesn't blow up.

I'll only shoot it one time, and then clean it up as good as possible and oil it to keep it from rusting any worse than it already is.

I'll post an update after I shoot it.....unless I'm blind or dead.

loose noose · Apr 21, 2014

What one ounce load, said. So far the thing hasn't cost you any money, however doctor bills are extremely expensive these days, not to mention vehicle repair bills. If it is a family heirloom, why risk blowing the dang thing up? :banghead:

coosbaycreep · Apr 22, 2014

I went ahead and shot it earlier today.

I used the chamber adapter and some light .38s (148gr DEWC, 2.9gr red dot). It was a hassle to get the barrels shut with the adapter in because it kept getting under the extractor where the barrel wouldn't shut. Once closed, I put it on the roof rack of my car, tied down the barrel with some rope, tied some rope to the trigger, and fired it from inside the car.

Both barrels fired fine. There's some smoke rings on the receiver in the shape of the chamber adapter (see pic). Other than that, it still locks up fine, and is in the same condition as before I fired it.

Tomorrow I'll clean it up real good, and it will likely never be fired again.

questions on an old damascus SXS 12ga

coosbaycreep

Member

Onmilo

Member

hartcreek

member

1911 guy

Member

SDC

Member

oneounceload

member

natman

Member

oneounceload

member

coosbaycreep

Member

loose noose

Member

coosbaycreep

Member

Similar threads