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real rifles

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I'm a day late to this thread, and don't have any pictures to share yet, but I do have a view.

I only have rimfire rifles (though my first AR will arrive next month.) For a while, I only had one, a Ruger 10/22, bought in 1987. In 2011, I "went plastic" with it using the Tapco stock/buttstock assembly, and it did come out pretty cool.

But, as some time went on, I did miss the feel and heft of the wood rifle it had once been. Last month, I came across a pre-68 Glenfield 75 and picked it up. Felt good, just about the right heft and weight, and I took it home.

I get both sides, but I do appreciate a wood-n-steel rifle just as much as I still like an all-steel pistol (which is quite a bit!)
 
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Ya know, Brownells sells wood stocks for the AR15 rifles... Wood (haha) that qualify?

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...sets/ar-15-m16-wood-stock-sets-prod38906.aspx

And who does not love the old wood stocked AKM beauties?

But yes, old school is cool and New fangled is nice.

Altho I once saw a plastic multi position stocked lever action with rails and all by Mossberg (464SPX) that sorta left me aghast at the zombie hunting blasphemy they were attempting to hoist upon us... made me laugh... out loud! ;)

Of course, I'm old enough to remember my Dad and Uncles laughing at Remington's Nylon 66 when they were all over the place as well for much the same reason.

What is old is new.
 
Aesthetics? I prefer blue steel and wood. But my old-age go-to is a 700 Ti. 6.5 pounds, total, is much better than 9.5 pounds. :D

My ARs have been fun to shoot, and accurate. I'm on my fifth one, now. They just don't really appeal to me as any sort of big deal or really-neat rifle. I just can't generate any enthusiasm. But they do what they're designed to do so I don't gripe about them.
 
I don't care whether a bolt action rifle has a synthetic stock or a wood stock so long as the synthetic stock is good quality. Everyone has their quirks. Even though all of my rifles sport scopes I really like them to have iron sights too. That is a lot harder to find than a wood stock. I also prefer a blind magazine and won't own a rifle with a DBM.
 
Highpower. Dude! that is the first M1A I have ever seen with a selector switch and a connector assembly! The switch is set halfway between auto and semi. Is someone making a civilian legal M1A with a fake selector? That sure looks like an M-14 to me!
 
Well, you know how it is. If you've seen one wood-stocked rifle you've pretty much seen em all, I guess.
I agree. I mean, I enjoy the look of a classic-looking hunting rifle, but there isn't much difference from one to another. Like you said, seen one, seen em all.
 
Firearm beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am restricting my comments purely to bolt-action rifles, because that is what I use the most for hunting. That should not suggest that I do not like my M1As, AR-stle rifles, or AK-style rifles. Rifles are all awesome!

I really enjoy taking my M70 Super Grade out of the vault and looking at it. I definitely want an M70 Featherweight, an M70 Sporter and a M70 Safari. Why?! Because they are beautiful.

But, if I know I will be hunting in damp, harsh areas, unable to keep that wood and steel dry, I'll be looking to synthetic and stainless. But, when you compare a Super Grade at $1,300.00 versus a Ultimate Shadow at $650.00, well, dollars speak loudly. That may explain why I have 5 M70s, and only 1 is wood, the other 4 are synthetic.
 
highpower post #6
If that is an original Belgian made Browning 22 semi-auto, what is it doing duty behind yer truck seat?
Seriously, dad taught my brother and I how to shoot with one like the rifle pictured.
Along with the safety rules & responsibility that goes with having a loaded gun in your hands.
GREAT example of a beautiful wood stocked rifle. And a nail driver!!
 
I love all these old guns. I truly did not mean to offend you guys that are so sensitive about your ARs. I have one too and I love it. I just have a soft spot in my heart for the "real guns" that we are showing here. I also have a sendero 300 RUM with a synthetic stock and I love that thing but it doesn't have the soul of that old model 70. Plus, to the guy that said I only like super expensive guns, I paid $300.00 for the 1916 Mauser (with whiteline spacers and diamond inlay) and I paid $500.00 for the 1955 model 70 300 H&H. My kevlar stocked Sendero cost more than both of these put together. Please everyone continue to post pictures of your old hunting rifles. I love seeing them.
 
And Badlander, I love those big lever actions, I shot down a six inch diameter oak tree with three shots from my Marlin 45-70 last week
 
I do understand the OPs sentiment though....frankly it seems lately that a lot of the industry seems to be moving towards consolidation of just a few designs, chasing the dollar, and sacrificing variation in the process. Even a great old companys like Mossberg are in the AR market. While clearly a lot of guys like to play GI Joe, there is some history to this, as service rifles in service calibers have always been hot in the American publics eye. The 1903's, Garands, and m-1As of yesteryear are todays AR's and AK's. Personally I the AR platform does absolutely nothing for me, and I'll probably never buy one. I also get tired of see all the ARs, and AKs as I view them as plain, boring and vanilla, but to each his or her own. I was taught that you shouldn't disparage another mans car, and I feel the same applies to guns.
 
I have not disparaged anyone's choice of firearms, I just said that I would like to see more tradition and class in the firearms industry. I have repeatedly said that I love the new synthetic, tactical stuff, but we still need good old fashioned hunting rifles, and ones that are not so expensive that they are cost prohibitive to normal folks like us.
 
Here is my current favorite hunting rifle. It's a Mauser action with an octagon barrel and fine walnut stock. The scope mounts are Conetrol.

This rifle is very accurate with it's first shot from a cold barrel as well as shooting small groups. The trigger is perfect and it has a M70 type 3 position wing safety.

I have made some excellent shots on game with this 30-06 rifle.

1000031n.jpg
 
Until recently i only had rifles with furniture, when the prices on a S and W 15 came back to reality, i did pick one up, BUT, My Marlins are my true love.
Marlin 39a, 1894 c, 1894 s, 30AS, 1895gbl, 336 in 35 remington, and lets not forget the Browning blr's in .243, .270 and .308.
What can i say, i loves me a lever gun.
I do agree though, as just about any LGS i go to is packed with black guns, and traditional rifles with wood have lesser real estate on the podium.
 
All you girls with these new fangled "bolt action" smokeless powder, repeating rifles need to grow a pair. I knew when the gubmint introduced that 30 cal fairy-powered little Norwegian rifle that the end was nigh.
 
gaerich,

plastic (polymer) weapons keep the gun industry afloat. that market segment keeps us strong and allows us all to enjoy our blue steel and walnut. so, the next time you go to a gun store you don't have to get so upset!

probably the biggest reason the antis are trying to shut that market down.

murf
 
6503x-2.jpg Wood and blued steel just warms my heart. Plastic/fiberglass may be superior for several reasons, but does not really interest me.
 
i have a mixture of both, and feel they all have their place.

plenty of guys hunt dangerous game in africa with synthetic stocked rifles due to their indifference to temp and humidity. not sure it get's much more "real" than that.

same thing for combat. name a more "real" purpose than defending this country and the lives of those that fight for it. pretty much all of those rifles are synthetic.

i love blue and walnut just as much, if not more than most, but synthetic stocked guns certainly have a role to fill.
^^^
This
 
The "Classic American Hunting Rifle" was very much the product of the Mauser bolt action military action - the ones Nazi Germany used to kill millions of people opposed to their rule. From there it was brought back as a trophy, and with the numerous examples at dirt cheap prices, gunsmiths started sporterizing them. Early on they all had dropped stocks, which meant in the larger calibers, the rifle rotated up in recoil and smacked the shooter on the cheek, adding to the sense it was a "man's" rifle.

From there, the Monte Carlo cheek rest was added to improve the line of sight thru the scope, and then the custom embellishments were piled on one after the other. And few of these rifles were priced for the common working man. Weatherbys raised the ante on what was considered "normal" on a "Man's" hunting rifle - and the race to add custom checkering, whiteline spacers, ebony caps, trim sling swivels, and precision accuracy was on. Magazine writers piled on with over the top enthusiasm, the post War economy was booming, conservation policies were being eased and hunting wasn't an exercise in frustration. As more moved to suburbia and had disposable income, more could go hunting in regions where game still existed in quantity, and shoot the legendary animals that only the rich and famous were reported to hunt.

Well, if you can own the same looking gun as the Great White Hunters in magazine and movie fame, that made you just like them, right? Which brings up the question, how is that any different than those of us who like wannabe military actions?

We are all just pretending to be something else, just the same as someone who buys a very expensive car, watch, or installs a home theater. It's all part of the male syndrome to acquire bragging rights and position themselves in society at a higher rank than the others around them.

It's why I have consistently heard the admirers of "real rifles" to use a belittling, even derogatory attitude when talking about other kinds of rifles - especially military. It's pretty obvious "real rifles" were left in the back of surplus stores over 60 years ago as self loading actions and composite construction proved far superior. What we saw in the '50s with the growth of "real rifles" was the typical "iconization" of the previous generations standard. Bolt actions were being cast aside by the military, and just like the 1911, the fans came out to get them in support.

"Real rifles" aren't the epitome of the working military actions that had been used for the previous 50 years, they were the customized high end celebration of a era that was passing, by those who could afford them. Plenty of other rifles were still in production, the Nylon 66 came out, the Armalite AR10 was being issued to the Portuguese, and the M16 was in testing to replace the older, heavier, less durable, unwieldy and overpowered M14.

We see exactly the same thing going in with watches today - with cell phones everywhere, knowing the time, having alarms, setting up your calendar of events is just a glance away. Watches have become a celebration of old school analog dials, mechanical movements, and styling exercises have exploded exponentially. If you wear a watch these day, you have a huge range of choices in materials, styles, and finishes. In contrast to the cell phone, which is now a boring windowpane.

We can celebrate "real rifles" for what they are, but by no means can we say that the short 20 year period of their era represents any significant statement that they are the absolute epitome of firearms on earth. In that regard, they are just a blink of the eye in the long history of flintlocks and matchlocks, which lasted centuries, or military grade rifles, which advance the state of the art in firearms construction with every new discovery - brass cartridges, repeater mechanisms, durable finishes, self loading actions, optical improvements, composite materials. "Real rifles" tend to avoid all that in a celebration of luxury and wealth - much like the 1958 Impala. Chrome galore and tailfins.

If that's your grail, enjoy. It's an interesting niche in firearms history, not much different than the cars that shared the same time.
 
A good read by Chuck Hawks on the subject:

A Critical Look at Modern Hunting Rifles and the Failure of the Outdoor Media


By Chuck Hawks


Like many old geezers, I bemoan the loss, or lack, of standards in our modern world. Nowhere is this devaluation of quality more evident than in 21st Century firearms. (Actually, the slide started in the 1960's and accelerated toward the end of the 20th Century.)

Today, we are reaping the crop of sub-standard firearms previously sown. Most of the blame for this falls squarely on the shoulders of the writers and publishers of the specialty outdoors print magazines and their associated websites. In the quest for advertising dollars they have turned a blind eye to the constant cheapening of our guns, particularly big game hunting rifles. Often they have merely parroted the promotional flack handed to them by the manufacturer's ad agencies in their gun reviews.

Thus flimsy, injection molded synthetic stocks are praised as "lightweight" or "weather resistant" rather than criticized as the inferior bedding platforms that they actually are. Free floating barrels, introduced simply to minimize the labor cost of precisely bedding a barreled action in a gun stock, are now praised as an asset by those who know nothing else. A perfect example of an economy shortcut becoming the new standard.

The deficiencies of receivers that are simply drilled from bar stock and that substitute heavy washers for integral recoil lugs are never mentioned in modern rifle reviews. Often the loading/ejection port--merely a slot cut into the tubular receiver--is so small that it is difficult or impossible to load a cartridge directly into the chamber, or manually remove a fired case. However, the implication of this drawback for use in the field is not mentioned.

In many cases, "short actions" are merely long actions with the bolt stop moved forward to limit bolt travel. The modern gun writers who review these creations likewise never mention that this defeats the fundamental purpose of the short action calibers for which these rifles are chambered.

The receiver holds the bolt, which brings up a salient question: does anyone really believe that a cheap multi-piece, assembled bolt has any possible advantage over a one-piece forged steel bolt except economy of manufacture?

The use of plastic for trigger guards and the "bottom iron" is overlooked by the popular press, or actually praised as lightweight construction. Talk about spin, these guys could teach the Washington political hacks some tricks!

In fact, "lightweight" and "accuracy" are the buzzwords most frequently used to "spin" hunting rifle reviews in a paying advertiser's favor. Cheap substitute materials are usually lighter, but not stronger, than forged steel and most production rifles will occasionally shoot a "braggin' group" that can be exploited in a review. Whenever reviewers start touting either, watch out! There is probably not a lot to tout in the critical areas of design, material, quality, manufacture, or fit and finish. To use an analogy, it is like a describing a poorly designed, low quality, cheaply made and potentially unreliable automobile by saying, "it rides nice"!

A rifle's lines and finish are largely cosmetic, but why should we be condemned to hunt with ugly rifles? Matte finishes on barreled actions are sold as a benefit ("low glare"), but in reality they are simply faster and thus less expensive for the manufacturer to produce than a highly polished finish. The flat black color touted as a stealth advantage of plastic stocks over walnut is patently absurd. Why would a rational person believe that such stocks are any less visible to animals in the woods than a wooden stock?

Have you noticed how the checkered areas on many wood stocked rifles, the Tikka T3 for example, are divided into several small patches? That is done because it is easier (and therefore cheaper) to cut a small patch of checkering than a larger one. The shorter the individual checkering lines, the easier it is to keep them straight. Once again, manufacturing economy triumphs over aesthetics and function.

The Tikka T3 referenced in the paragraph above is certainly not the only modern hunting rifle to adopt some or most of these production shortcuts. I did not mention it to pick on Tikka rifles. I mention it by name because it incorporates nearly all of these cost and quality reducing shortcuts in one rifle. If there is a production shortcut out there, the T3 probably has it. (Well, okay, the T3 doesn't substitute simple holes molded into its plastic stock for detachable sling swivel studs in the incredibly chintzy manner of the S&W I-Bolt, I grant you.)

Then there is the heavily advertised Tikka 1" at 100 yards accuracy claim. Experienced hunters know that such a guarantee, even if true, is actually pretty meaningless, but beginners are impressed. The reality is that big game animals are large and hair-splitting accuracy is almost never required. A rifle that will consistently shoot into 2" at 100 yards (2 MOA) is accurate enough. A hunting rifle that will average 1.5 MOA groups with an occasional sub-1" group thrown in for good measure (and an occasional 2" group, too!) is a good one and the off the shelf Tikka rifles with which we have had experience met that standard. However, the question is: Why do almost all of my fellow gun writers fail to mention these simple facts? (For more on hunting rifle accuracy, see the article "Hunting Rifle Accuracy: Enough is Enough!" on the Rifle Information page.)

To add insult to injury, the Tikka T3 is designed to be a cheap rifle to manufacture, but it is relatively expensive to purchase. (Ditto the disgraceful S&W I-Bolt!) These economy rifles retail for as much or more than a number of higher quality, better designed and better turned-out hunting rifles. Their success is a tribute to the ignorance of the modern American sportsman, intentionally fostered by the connivance of the outdoor media upon which they rely for information.

None of this means that a person cannot hunt successfully with a Tikka T3 rifle, or that Tikka owners are a particularly dissatisfied lot. Most T3 owners are pleased with the performance of their rifles and satisfied with their purchase. Some T3 buyers, aware of its shortcomings, purchased a T3 to use as a "knockabout" rifle, a purpose for which it is well suited. In truth, T3's are (usually) safe, functional rifles and perfectly capable of killing game in the hands of an adequate shot. The same could be said about most economy hunting rifles, including the far less expensive Savage Edge, Stevens 200, Marlin XL7C and Remington 770.

I suspect that most satisfied T3 customers are not "gun nuts" and do not have decades of experience with better quality hunting rifles. A person who has never owned a fine rifle is much more likely to overlook an economy rifle's shortcomings than an experienced shooter and hunter. The relative newcomer simply has inadequate personal experience upon which to base an informed opinion. It is the job of the outdoor media (gun writers), who presumably have such experience, to inform their readers.

Why has the outdoor media so thoroughly failed in its duty to its readers? The answer is simple and again the T3 provides a good example: Beretta Corp. (who markets Tikka rifles) is a big bucks advertiser in the outdoor media, particularly print magazines. Money talks and gun reviews are consequently tailored to please the manufacturer/advertiser.

What about the writers' and editors' obligation to their readers, who pay their hard earned dollars to read those reviews? Obviously, the word "integrity" has been deleted from the publishers' spell checkers.

This little piece, for example, drew a rather impassioned exchange of e-mails from Beretta's Marketing Manager, who was offended because I used the Tikka T3 rifle as an example. In one of those e-mails (clearly hoping that I would withdraw the article) he wrote: "Do you actually think that an article like this couldn't negatively affect our business?" And a bit later: "How comfortable do you think I will be sending you additional consignment guns for testing if this (article) is an acceptable practice? Working with the media is a two way street, is it not?"

That thinly veiled threat, in a nutshell, is the problem. Most of the established outdoor media have become little more than shills for the major manufacturers. That "two way street" has, in reality, become a one way street and the prime directive of most of the shooting and outdoor media is never to offend a major advertiser. The favored publications, bought and paid for by their advertisers, are rewarded with inside information and the latest products for "exclusive" reviews, while any publication that dares criticize even a single offering from a major advertiser is shunned.

The print publications, in particular, survive only because of paid advertising. A threat like that would have them pulling the offending article (this one!) in a New York minute. Fortunately, although Guns and Shooting Online sells banners to advertisers that meet our standards, we basically survive on our loyal readers' paid Memberships. (God bless those of you who spend a few of your hard earned dollars to join Guns and Shooting Online!) A good thing, as I suspect that Beretta Corp. will not be advertising on Guns and Shooting Online. Nor are we likely to be getting guns consigned for review from Sako/Tikka anytime soon. However, I sleep well at night and you, gentle reader, get to read the truth as we see it.
 
The oddball part of all this is the comparative cost of production, today, versus yesteryear.

So bolt-actions have "plastic" stocks and some plastic parts: Lower production costs, so they can be made such that Joe Sixpack can afford to buy one.

You can buy any style of rifle which is manufactured to the very-high fit and finish characteristics of the "Good Old Days". But it ain't gonna be sold for $400. And a NIB $400 rifle may well shoot tighter groups than a Good Old Days version.
 
You tell them Art!!! & Warp!!!

Probably too mch to expect, though...

It sure is (LOL).

I would like to be driving a Jaguar XJ but at a base price of $81,200 that is not going to happen. And I love those Over & Under shotguns that start at $2,500 and go up to $15,000 with their fine wood. But that's not going to happen either.

So all of you that want to live in the past and keep polishing your fine wood rifles that never leave the safe, wake up and smell the coffee and stop living in the past.

Hell, I was born in 1943 and sure as shooting do not want to go back and live without air conditioning or TV or even computers (LOL).

So live in the past all you want, but I'm going shooting tomorrow with my plastic synthetic stocked rifles till I wear out the barrels. And as I tell my kids Grow-UP" and accept the world as it is not as you want it.

Jim
 
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