ANOTHER Remington 700 recall? Possible class action settlement

The trigger on all 1946-2006 guns is well known to be a flawed design. I don't see Remington staying open if this happens. Last estimates I saw said about $150/ rifle to replace triggers. With 5 million made that is a lot of cash.

jmr40 said:

The trigger on all 1946-2006 guns is well known to be a flawed design

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This is false. My family has run a variety of Remington 700s with factory triggers that I know of personally since the 1960s. The only trouble we've ever had is when the triggers were adjusted incorrectly or were in a severe need of cleaning.

I have adjusted more than a few Remington triggers and they are one of the best factory offerings out there. My Remington triggers are by far my favorites

Over 5 million of these rifles out there, and how many documented cases of the rifle firing without the trigger being pulled? And how many of those firearms had been tinkered with? Of the ones that weren't, were they properly serviced and maintained? No gooey lubricant build-up or worn parts that were the cause?

IMO, this is like trying to sue an automaker because there have been a few instances of people crashing due to neglected, worn-out brake or suspension/steering parts.

Responsible ownership and operation includes proper servicing and maintenance of ANY machine, and especially of those that may present serious dangers if not properly cared for.

This is false

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No, it is true. A simple $0.05 fix was all it needed back then (1946) (they were told this by the designer of the trigger back in 1946) to insure the safety and trigger would not kill the owner, but the cheap bas***** knew it and still did nothing about it. It has been the same design since then and many, many have been killed and it is just now they want to do something (LOL).

If you believe it is false, you must be driving a Pinto from Ford. (LOLOLOL)

Jim

"Andrei; you've lost another submarine?"

I've never looked at the 700 trigger design closely before, but...why does a bolt action rifle need a trigger disconnector? It's not like you'll be holding it down while you work the action, or anything . Is it seriously just there so the trigger lever you press can return fully after firing but before cycling the bolt, or am I missing something?

"A simple $0.05 fix was all it needed back then (1946)"
Hey, back in '46, five cents was a lot of... oh, wait, .61$ in today's money

"to insure the safety and trigger would not kill the owner"
I take some issue with this, since a) anyone's a fool to trust a bolt action to be as safe as a true multi-redundant design like we see in pistols and modern rifles (maybe forgivable due to ignorance), b) a gun with a loaded barrel is pointed at a person or unsafe direction either before or after the gun was put on "safe", and c) who's screwing around with a loaded rifle while they aren't meaning to be shooting, for any reason?

TCB

jim243 said:

It has been the same design since then and many, many have been killed

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Pretty sure the X-Mark trigger is different from the original

How many is "many, many"?

Gun firing without pulling the trigger is bad...pointing muzzle at something you don't want dead is also bad.

jim243 said:

No, it is true. A simple $0.05 fix was all it needed back then (1946) (they were told this by the designer of the trigger back in 1946) to insure the safety and trigger would not kill the owner, but the cheap bas***** knew it and still did nothing about it. It has been the same design since then and many, many have been killed and it is just now they want to do something (LOL).

If you believe it is false, you must be driving a Pinto from Ford. (LOLOLOL)

Jim

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Yes. Yes I am. It serves me well in my real estate business. In fact, I gotta drive down to Santa Monica tomorrow and check out some beach front property just west of the pier....

It has been the same design since then and many, many have been killed

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My hyperbole meter is pegged..........

you couldn't give me a Remington bolt action. Even if you did, I would just to have to send it in sounds like. They have been making guns cheap for a long time now, it finally caught up with em.

you couldn't give me a Remington bolt action.

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Well, if someone ever gives you one, I'll be happy to take that junk rifle off your hands. I'll even pay shipping!

OK, OK, I'll keep my opinion to myself on Remington recall threads. I don't own one so I'll quit talkin about them

I would be interested in a technical drawing laying out the flaw in the system. My 700 in .270 made somewhere around 2000 has never failed in any aspect. Clean, dirty, beaten or babied it serves me well each time it gets to leave its safe. Just what piece is flawed and how is the safe function mechanically failing?

Just what piece is flawed and how is the safe function mechanically failing?

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Earlier 700s could not be unloaded on "safe", and there have been a handful of cases of them discharging when the safety was disengaged. As for later rifles, unless something new has come to light, I'm pretty sure the culprit has been worn parts, dirty mechanisms or improperly adjusted/modified triggers every time. A lot of people who don't know what they're doing have messed with sear engagement on 700 trigger, and that can easily result in a rifle that will fire when dropped or when the safety is disengaged.

It is not a complicated design:

Not I. I got a good deal on a Rem 700 CDL .223 beauty after the recall was announced. My big decision was to buy the Timney or the Jewell ($1x versus $2x in price) but I still chose the Jewell. So the gun was pricier, and I may just send them the flawed Reminton trigger (without the gun) to see if they will fix it. My 51% bet is that they will be confused and it will disappear in to the 'wrong process' bin, not to be seen until they are sold to another investment house in 18 months. Meanwhile I'll have a great gun at a great price but ultimately from a shell of a company whose investor would not tolerate the financial hardship of improving the products and processes of the company so instead just wrote it off and ended the option of restoring a once-American treasure.
At least I will have the (R700 CDL teeshirt).
B

I saw a TV show about this issue a few years ago. They interviewed the original designer of the trigger system for the 700. He said before the rifle was even released, he realized the trigger was unsafe and went to the executives with the necessary changes to fix it. They didn't want to spend the 5 or 9 cents to implement his revised design.

The guy in the article was also one of the people interviewed, along with several others it had happened to, where the rifle fired just by moving the safety from on to off.

Sure, maybe it only happens .0002% of the time, but when it happens to you, it's 100%.

This is false.

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No, regretfully it is true. No disrespect intended, but you are not very well informed on this subject.

Even Remington's original engineer on the project acknowledged the trigger was unsafe. Do some research. Just because your family's guns have not malfunctioned does not mean that there is not a dangerous design flaw in the earlier triggers, that is well established and past the debate stage.

stiab said:

No, regretfully it is true. No disrespect intended, but you are not very well informed on this subject.

Even Remington's original engineer on the project acknowledged the trigger was unsafe. Do some research. Just because your family's guns have not malfunctioned does not mean that there is not a dangerous design flaw in the earlier triggers, that is well established and past the debate stage.

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I have done a lot of research. The problem with the Remington trigger stems from being adjusted incorrectly and/or being crudded up.

Stating the engineer says the design is unsafe doesn't tell us a thing. Why does he consider it unsafe? I have seen problems with Remington triggers releasing the striker by simply moving the safety from SAFE to FIRE. It happens because the trigger was adjusted with too little sear engagement. I've also seen it happen when the FCG gets gunked up with old, hardened grease. Clean them up, adjust the trigger right and the problem goes away. As long as folks have the option of adjusting a trigger right at the ragged edge of performance, there will be those that will push past that edge and have themselves an unsafe trigger. Timney triggers can also be adjusted as to be unsafe. Tuning an adjustable trigger is a balancing act of pull weight, crisp break and minimal backlash. Once adjusted, the trigger must be tested to ensure it won't fire inadvertently. With the safety off, work the bolt rapidly. Bang the butt on the floor. If it releases the striker, there is too little sear engagement for the pull weight. With the safety on, press the trigger then release the trigger. Then disengage the safety. If it releases the striker, there is too little sear engagement for the pull weight. This is true for just about any trigger, including the Timney- not just the Remington trigger.

Take the time to play with a Remington trigger and really study it and find out for yourself

Having owned more than a few 700's and Sevens's for decades, I don't think they will be getting any of them back. At least not without feeling how the new one's are.

The again I know how to adjust them, clean them and have never had any problems.

A common misconception is that all problem Remington triggers have been modified and are too light. If someone improperly adjusts a trigger too light on ANY gun it will discharge very easily, but some action must be put on the trigger to get it to release the sear.

The trigger connector, (illustration above) on a Remington trigger is a floating piece of stamped sheet metal that is free to move around inside the trigger housing. No other gun uses this design. At rare times the connector will release the sear with no trigger pull. When that happens the safety is the only thing holding back the firing pin. Move the safety to the fire position and the gun goes off with no trigger pull. Even if you had the trigger adjusted to 20 lbs it would not prevent this.

The flaw was discovered in 1946 and Remington engineers drew up a new design without the connector, but management declined to adopt the change.

The issue is rare, but has happened a lot more over the last 60 years than most think. Somewhere between 5000-10,000 rifles have been returned to Remington and many more gun owners simply replaced their triggers with aftermarket.

My family has run a variety of Remington 700s with factory triggers that I know of personally since the 1960s. The only trouble we've ever had is when the triggers were adjusted incorrectly or were in a severe need of cleaning.

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Just because something has never happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've never been in a plane crash or struck by lightning. Never known of anyone else that had it happen to them either. Doesn't prove that plane crashes and lightning strikes don't happen.

I have had a Remington 700 drop the firing pin with no trigger pull though. Fortunately on an empty chamber in my case.

I'm happy with my 700 trigger the way it is so I have no plans to send it in.

I don't feel like it's dangerous, however, I feel it would be safer if the failure mode of the trigger would cause it not to fire. This goes for any firearm not just the 700's.

I've had a good few 700s and haven't killed myself or anyone else. I had my 7mag fire once in me but that was my doing with an aftermarket trigger

The problem with the Remington trigger stems from being adjusted incorrectly and/or being crudded up.

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A trigger that becomes unsafe when it's dirty is an unsafe trigger. Getting dirty is not an unexpected or unreasonable condition for a hunting rifle.

I expect there will be another recall, but with very low compliance. Remington will meet the requirements of a settlement, people who are aware and concerned will get new trigger, and the dollar amount will not be all that large. My 2 cents.

Can anyone tell me if a ribbed pre-XMP trigger from around 2000-2005 automatically has the Walker design and therefore the defect?

I have done a lot of research. The problem with the Remington trigger stems from being adjusted incorrectly and/or being crudded up.

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I wish that were the case, but it's not. Read post #20 for the correct information. There are zillions of M700 triggers that have never malfunctioned, and there are thousands that have malfunctioned without having been tampered with.

There are people who have owned the same rifle for 20 years, and it has only happened to them one time, but it still happened. It is a design flaw, that is well know. This subject has been thoroughly discussed on this forum before, maybe you missed those threads.

Can anyone tell me if a ribbed pre-XMP trigger from around 2000-2005 automatically has the Walker design and therefore the defect?

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My understanding is that it does. When doing research in anticipation of purchasing a 2010 year model 700 in .243, the conclusion was that any smooth trigger would be OK, and any ribbed trigger was not. Thankfully I did not make that purchase, because that rifle was definitely in the XMP recall.

My brother sent his Model 7 in for the current trigger recall. My most recent Remington purchase was a Model 750, which failed miserably. I have lost all confidence in Remington.