.45 auto not penetrating winter clothes?

Perhaps, if I can ever find the time to get out shooting outdoors again, I'll take $10 to the local Goodwill store and buy up a pile of sweaters, jackets, and coats and do some side-by-side comparisons ala Box O' Truth style.

If I ever to, I'll be sure to post the results here.

It seems to me the people arguing that the 45 lacks ability to penetrate are using lots of anecdotes with nothing to back them up. "I heard" isn't the way to start a sentence when condemning a +100 year old cartridge with a fantastic history of effectiveness.

All I can tell you for sure is,
Don't get shot in the head with one, or behind your winter leather, quilted coat!

It isn't going to bounce off!

That slow 230 grain bullet costing along at 800 FPS will knock your dauber off, and keep on going!

rc

There is no way a .45 Auto isn't going to penetrate winter coats and undergarments, unless we're talking about Bibendum wearing a Kevlar trench coat or something.

I recall clothing barrier tests back when 'flying ashtray' .45ACP hollow points were common for self defense use. The opening in those hollow points was just massive, almost comical even. They tended to plug with heavy clothing like leather over a couple layers of flannel and not expand... meaning that they OVER penetrated when used against an attacker in heavy clothing. As we all know and (hopefully) understand, a .45 JHP that doesn't expand is effectively a .45 FMJ. Like someone said above, put on every piece of clothing you own and a .45 FMJ will still go clean through you. I carry HSTs in my .45 because at the time I decided what carry round to go with they tested as the most reliable expanders through heavy clothing.

How far away was the person when the bullet hit the heavy clothing and failed to penetrate.

I would bet it's way beyond the effective range as well as most shooters ability to effectivly aim and reliably hit with a firearm.


"Read up on the Battle of Chosin Reservoir and you will find the only gun that was still able to shoot in the extreme cold was the GI 1911."

I bet that GI 1911 was a typical loose as a goose rattlley but good enough issue sidearm.

I really don't think any of these modern tuned up tight tolerence 1911 pistols would fare so well.

If I ever get a 1911 I would go for one of those rattley loose as a goose but good enough pistols at a good price point.

I sure would not want to volunteer to find out if wearing winter clothing will stop a .45

Hey, I STILL carry and have a stash of flying ashtrays!

Ya know, I saw on a commercial once that a master lock would stop a .30-06 round. Didn't believe that one, either. Weatherby had fun mocking that commercial, though.

I can personally attest to the fact a 230gr FMJ fired from a full-size Colt 1991A1 will penetrate a mattress and box-spring and send pieces of the pages of a book under the bed flying out like confetti.

Ripped the springs it hit out of both the mattress and the box-spring and left them hanging out, had to pry them apart because the mattress spring was in the box-spring.

Tore a huge spiral sort of star shaped rip into the sheet as well.

"I suspect it is more about soldiers thinking they made good hits but really did not. That is still happening in today's conflicts. " [Nom de Forum]

Bingo. That said, the 45 ACP 230 gr hardball is not a great penetrator, IIRC it was the Canadian Army that tested the 1911 vs the Hi-Power: 45 ACP ball penetrated a steel helmet out to 30 yards, 9mm 124 gr ball penetrated out to 100 yards. In all my tests, the 9mm out penetrated 45ACP ball, it even out penetrated 240 gr 44 Magnum, and that surprised me.

1911 Tuner... that result you got with the Caterpillar tire is very interesting... either that rubber has mystical properties or the 9mm ammo was sour or the 9mm barrel was worn.

"It isn't going to bounce off!"[rcmodel]

Have run across this on 2 occasions, apparently 45 ball can ricochet off the noggin at just the right angle... leaves one with a headache tho... of varying severity.

"Has anyone every read a documented case of heavy winter clothes stopping a shot from a .45 auto?" [traveler106]

No. But I have worked outdoors in -40 conditions and everything slows down to a crawl. And bullets can do strange things where ice, metal buttons, and metal gear are involved.

Tried the denim and pork ribs test, but that was summer clothing, inside 25 yards I would expect standard 230 gr ball to penetrate winter clothing just fine.

Were the North korean's winter clothes just multiple layers of wool, etc? Or were they multiple layers of wool soaked in water and mud, packed with snow then frozen solid in subzero temperatures? Multiple layers of frozen wool probably would act a bit like kevlar. Probably more like a flack jacket.

1911 Tuner... that result you got with the Caterpillar tire is very interesting... either that rubber has mystical properties or the 9mm ammo was sour or the 9mm barrel was worn.

Click to expand...

All the ammunition was fresh except for the .38 Super. It dated back to the mid-60s...from several boxes that my father bought and stored.

R.W.Dale said:

A lot if these tales seem to originate form Korea. I suspect that there may be a grain of truth behind then but not because of the immediately obvious reason.


Lack of penetration through heavy clothing is what is cited. But why were soldiers wearing that much winter gear? BECAUSE IT WAS COLD...really really really cold as low as -30

I'm thinking that it was cold enough that the propellants of the day were not performing at 100% resulting in low velocity and under penetrating

Click to expand...

Or just more of case of missing the target.
I'm read/heard I don't know how many times about how ineffective 30 carbine is because the speaker/writer uses the example of it not penetrating N. Koreian/Chinese heavy winter clothing. But I have also read that in many cases GI s were opening fire with M1/M2 Carbines way beyond it's useful range and more than likely just flat out not hitting the target. Someone did a test, Box of Truth website I think, where they tested 30 carbine against frozen heavy winter clothing and it had no problem penetrating. I suspect the same thing was happening with various the 45s used.

W L Johnson said:

Or just more of case of missing the target.
I'm read/heard I don't know how many times about how ineffective 30 carbine is because the speaker/writer uses the example of it not penetrating N. Koreian/Chinese heavy winter clothing. But I have also read that in many cases GI s were opening fire with M1/M2 Carbines way beyond it's useful range and more than likely just flat out not hitting the target. Someone did a test, Box of Truth website I think, where they tested 30 carbine against frozen heavy winter clothing and it had no problem penetrating. I suspect the same thing was happening with various the 45s used.

Click to expand...

Did they freeze the ammunition and gun to THIRTY DEGREES BELOW ZERO then collect data?

If not they did not replicate the conditions therefore the "test" is invalid.

The powders used in 30 carbine are well known to magnum handgunners to require a pretty stiff primer hit and chamber pressure to achieve proper burn. I for one would like to know how THIRTY BELOW ZERO affects performance before I dismiss these reports out of hand.

As I recall Jack Lewis of Gun World Magazine a Marine veteran of Korea (I believe) wrote an article on the subject. How factual I do not know.

Combat Engineer said:

That said, the 45 ACP 230 gr hardball is not a great penetrator, IIRC it was the Canadian Army that tested the 1911 vs the Hi-Power: 45 ACP ball penetrated a steel helmet out to 30 yards, 9mm 124 gr ball penetrated out to 100 yards. In all my tests, the 9mm out penetrated 45ACP ball, it even out penetrated 240 gr 44 Magnum, and that surprised me.

Click to expand...

Penetrating something thin and hard (e.g. helmet, car doors) is different than penetrating a mass of something (wood, clothes, muscle).

The first (helmets, car doors) is related to energy density. So faster cartridges have an advantage here. The pointy nose of a 9mm also helps compared to the blunter 45 ACP.

The second (wood, clothes) is related to momentum density. Weight in relation to caliber (higher sectional density) is better here.

The 9mm has a higher energy density and momentum density than 45 ACP because similar sectional density bullets are 100 to 200 fps faster in the 9mm, and velocity squared is in the energy formula so it will do much better in the helmet/door test than the wood/clothes test. But the 9mm should do better in both.

Similar sectional densities:
9mm __ 45ACP
125gr - 200gr
147gr - 230gr

Unless I have been misinformed there is documentation that both .45acp and 30-06 rounds were stopped by whatever jacket the Koreans were wearing during the Korean War. That said, I believe the conclusion was that the jacket caught bullets fired from several miles away.

Like I said earlier, it's possible I've been misinformed, maybe someone here can confirm/debunk the info.

This discussion brings to mind the thread where a fellow wrapped a frozen turkey in several layers of heavy clothing, then shot it at 300 yards with a .22LR.

It penetrated through and through.

Perhaps what the OP needs to carry is a .22LR. Excellent at long range defense against heavily clothed frozen turkeys.

Tony k said:

Were the North korean's winter clothes just multiple layers of wool, etc? Or were they multiple layers of wool soaked in water and mud, packed with snow then frozen solid in subzero temperatures? Multiple layers of frozen wool probably would act a bit like kevlar. Probably more like a flack jacket.

Click to expand...

That is a very good point. My Dad lost a leg in Korea to a mortar round, as well as suffering several other shrapnel wounds across other parts of his body. He suffered relatively fewer wounds on his torso than legs, arms and neck and he attributed this to the many layers of clothing he was wearing due to the extreme cold.

In the complaints about M1/M2 carbine performance in winter: the anecdotes speak of firing an entire 30 shot magazine to no effect. The gas operated action of the M1/M2 carbine requires a substantially normal level of pressure to function automatically.

I am inclined to support the misses on full auto theory, the decreased bleed out due to cold restricting blood flow theory, and the dumbness to pain in the cold theory for lack of stopping effect, rather than accept the failure to penetrate winter coats theory.