Big Wadcutters For Defense?

[Cosmoline]

I've been looking into the data of penetration and expansion for handgun rounds lately, from .25 ACP to .45 ACP. Particularly when heavy clothing is put over the top of BG, the performance ranges from OK to horrible, with no expansion at all. The bottom line is, most handgun bullets simply aren't going fast enough to open in every impact, and if they do open the expanded head acts like a brake and stops the bullet from penetrating much further. Unless you buy into the "energy dump" hogwash, this is not a good thing. 14 to 16 inches of penetration would seem to me a minimum for good stopping power, since it's enough to get through a torso without having too much penetrative power left on the other side.

OTOH, we all know that RN and FMJ handgun bullets are notorious for poor terminal performance. They slip through tissue without always doing sufficient damage. And at handgun velocities they're not producing enough of a temporary cavity or shockwave to cause much secondary damage.

IIRC, Keith came up with the SWC design as a way of increasing the "cutting" aspect of handgun bullets, while keeping a high enough ballsitic coefficient to keep it in the air awhile. Of course, his design was for handgun hunting so a straight wadcutter with it's longer range velocity loss ruled that out. But for close range defense, this isn't a problem.

So why not crank up a wadcutter load to full power and use it for self defense? I'm not talking about flipping the HB ones around, I'm suggesting shooting them flat face first at full power. I haven't been able to find much penetration data on these, but I suspect they would penetrate better than a HP but not as far as a RN, while doing considerable "hole punch" tissue damage. Has anyone ever tested full power wadcutters on BG or even water jugs?

Feel free to kick this around.

 

[Erich]

That's what I do in my .38s - run a plated WC out the front at c 895 fps from the 2" and 970 fps from the 3" barrels. I'm about to do the same for my .45 acp pistol, thanks to Penn Bullets' great 225-gr WC.

Search on "Safestop" and "Cirillo" for more on your idea.

 

[fineredmist]

Keith designed the swc as a hunting round with the idea that the smaller nose will produce better penetration through hair and thick skin. I have read reports of comparisons of swc and hp rounds and the permanent wound channels are almost the same but the swc has the advantage of more penetration. The expansion of hps is negated by heavy clothing which tends to plug the hp in effect making a rn bullet. At defensive distances the swc will propably be the better as it will offer more initial penetration through heavy clothing.
Heavy low velocity hard cast lead bullets offer unbelieveable penetration at modest ranges and only loose out because of the poor tradjectory they produce. Millions of buffalo were killed with .45 and .50 cal bullets with mv at 1200 to 1400 fps.
Elmer was right, big heavy slow moving swc will do the trick.

 

[ugaarguy]

Cosmoline, take a look at www.brassfetcher.com. The site is free and owned by THR member JE223. He did some ballistic gel testing on SWCs in a few common handgun calibers. The penetration was nasty, worse than FMJ IIRC.

Edit: I looked at the site, and the test was a 45 ACP. Bullet was a 250 gr. Americast hard cast SWC over 5 grs. of AA #2. The bullet penetrated 16" of ballistic gel and 10" of polyester filled arrestor box. Gel calibration and wound channel info are on the site.

 

[SeanSw]

I maintain the right to change my mind in the future without fear of someone saying "I told you so", but this is the theory I subscribe to. As long as I know my pistol is loaded with HP there is a nagging seed of doubt that always has me worried about expansion. I don't carry, I live in an urban environment, possible assailants may be heavily clothed, I do not hunt, and believe I am just as likely to require penetration in a scenario where firearm is NEEDED and prefer to have the all-around bullet loaded for emergencies.

Adequate penetration trumps possible expansion/non-expansion/reduced penetration issues. WC and SWC work well for my standard uses and when loaded to a good velocity they ought to do the trick with decent shot placement. My .38 is loaded with factory 158gr +p SWC (which may only be around 850fps).

If CCW were an option then my opinion might change for an ideal caliber and bullet type, but I am not worried about the lack of expansion given by my ammo selection. They put holes in things. Not a really big hole, not a really small one either. And there will probably be a bullet resting at the end of it. That's all I need it to do.

 

[Preacherman]

Cosmo, the problem is that most full wadcutters are hollow-based. There's a hollow lead cylinder, topped with a flat lead plate. The plate itself is relatively thin, and isn't made to stand up to high pressure - that's one of the reasons why target wadcutter ammo is loaded to such low velocities.

If you load a hollow-based wadcutter to higher pressures, to get higher velocities, you run a real risk of blowing the top plate out of the barrel, leaving the lead cylinder behind in the barrel. Next round you fire . . . get the picture?

Unfortunately, due to weight considerations, it's not possible to have a full-caliber wadcutter that's solid all through, yet long enough to give decent stabilization in the bore. You end up with a short, fat cylinder that's a bit like a very thick coin.

 

[grendelbane]

For laughs, just load up a conventional jacketed bullet seated backwards. Makes a nice boat-tailed wadcutter, doesn't it?

It also decreases the available powder space, so be careful.

 

[slabsides]

Preach, I dunno...some years ago a group of us collaborated on a big casting project. We accumulated lead, and produced about equal amounts of full bevel-base 148 grain wadcutters, for those of us into target panning; and 156 gr Thompson gaschecks, for those of us shooting practical and hunting.
Those solid 148-gr full wadcutters were very effective on live targets even from short barrels. You could get them moving fast enough to do real damage. Never had any blowouts, these were chilled wheelweights and solid clear through. Very tough and effective bullets. I carried them in my 2" for many years, until they were all shot up. Now I buy cast bullets, usually the 158 gr swc. They are pretty good too...make nice full caliber holes in paper or flesh, and penetrate well. But I'd still carry the wadcutter solid if any more came my way.

 

[earplug]

Wadcutters

I have used bevel base wadcutters in my .38. .357 They work fine.
As a rule of thumb, Cast bullets can be driven faster then the swaged bullets with less leading.
Don't buy the hollow base WC for defence.
There are lots of cast bullets molds for full Wadcutters.
According to PISTOLS written by Henry M. Stebbins 1961, the factories used to load some hot Wadcutter rounds. They stopped due to problems with out of time revolvers shaving lead.
I'd feel well armed with a 200 grain 44.

 

[Preacherman]

Good point, slabsides. If you can get a decent bearing-length on a solid wadcutter, you're golden. I'd rate them right up there with wide-meplat solids as good things for you, and bad things for your target!

 

[Tom C.]

From what I have read, there seems to be a curve to describe penetration, where a flat point design with a small flat point (meplat) penetrates less than a larger meplat, but if the meplat gets too big, penetration is again reduced. This suggests to me that a little tin can of lead isn’t the optimum, but something more along the lines of the WFN type bullet or a wide meplat SWC. Particularly in winter with heavy clothing, the flat point bullet is king.
In a .45 ACP, I would tend toward the 230 FP design as about the optimum, if it is still available as a factory load.

 

[highlander 5]

years ago I carried a S&W model 25 45 Colt I carried 3 silver tips
and 3 255 gr wad cutters I cast myself from linotype from a saeco mold block. Used 7gr unique I believe very accurate and punched a big nasty hole thru most media I tried and in all honesty I wouldn't want to be hit with one.
BTW that block is a semi custom now but they do make a 225 wc block that's made on a regular basis

 

[Skywarp]

Looking at it I see that the SWC was designed for big game hunting back before the new generation of hollow points. In most cases people arent built like big game animals. Even with typical clothing a round designed for penetration in animals may prove to be too much even from calibers not designed for big game.

Modern hollowpoints are typically being designed around and for defense purposes with standards being used and created for the role. Things like barrier penetration, clothing penetration, and penetration through meat.


I think it is worth consideration but you cant go wrong with either. Except for me, I don't like lead bullets, especially when they look like crayons. But thats just irrational prefence.

 

[Cosmoline]

Unfortunately, due to weight considerations, it's not possible to have a full-caliber wadcutter that's solid all through, yet long enough to give decent stabilization in the bore. You end up with a short, fat cylinder that's a bit like a very thick coin.

That's a good point, Preacherman. It's probably more of a problem with big bores, though. Check out this .32 Wadcutter:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=185798

It's double ended 100 grain. I'm going to order some to work up loads with in the Nagant.

Here are similar double enders in .357":

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=173824

With larger bores, you have to move to the SWC design, which may be one reason it was developed.

As a general matter, my theory may have more application with smaller bore handguns. With the big boys you can get enough force to make HP's work better. Think of a .32 ACP wadcutter or a .38 Special wadcutter at max velocities compared with comparable HP loadings from those cartridges.

 

[Preacherman]

Interesting bullets, Cosmo. Are those crimping grooves at either end? Be odd to see a full wadcutter actually protruding from the case, and crimped in . . .

 

[earplug]

Bullets and fishing lures

Just my thoughts.
Lead bullets have been around for several hundred years.
Blackpowder rifles shoot bullets at a velocity much like modern pistols.
Lead, Tin, Copper, Brass arn't cutting edge metals. Much has been done with them in the past.
Many of the new bullets have the same appeal to shooters as A new fishing lure.
The target is the same old fish.

 

[shooting on a shoestring]

I like to keep em all covered

Gee so far we're discussing JHPs, SWCs and WDs. In my pocket is a .38 Mod 60 with Lyman 358091 148 gr wadcutters cast in wheel weight, measured velocity 870 fps. On my dresser is my daily CCW, .357 SP101 with 158 gr Speer Gold Dots, measured velocity 1140 fps. From under my pickup seat, on my night stand, a Blackhawk .45 Colt with Lyman 454424 250 gr SWC cast in wheel weight, measured velocity 1220 fps.

I like to taylor each bullet to the gun and the purpose. I don't believe in one size fits all.

Wadcutters for the pocket .38 b/c I only get 775 to 800 fps with HPs and I doubt they will open. Wadcutters will at least go through and through leaving two holes to drain blood.

JHPs, specifically Gold Dots in the carry .357 b/c they are completely coated in copper and that cuts down on lead contamination of my pocket with the speed loader. Also at 1140 fps I have some hope they will penetrate and open. If they don't open, the Gold Dot HP has a sharp cornered rim about the same size as a SWC meplat, should cut a good hole.

SWC in the .45 Colt b/c in the house, it's big meplat will leave huge gushing holes in both sides of BG. Out in the world, I see it as a stand-in for long range work (25 yd to ???). I used to carry a 30/30 for that possiblity. And as a mercy shot for deer wrecks, cow crashes and hog whops.

So, I think you ought to use all three.

 

[joneb]

I bought 500 rnds of Accura plated .451 200 swc , I loaded 50/ with 6.5 unique and 50/ with 6.8 of unique. Niether load functioned well in my Colt MK IV 70 Ser.
the round would stop at barrel ramp. Some mags. worked better than others, but in all I had bad results.

 

[Coltdriver]

I went to 158 grain SWC's in my .38 exactly because getting a bullet up to a speed where it would reliably expand from a little snubby makes for a lot of recoil. Too much to make shooting it practical.

The heavy old wad cutter will poke a hole right through. I use a solid hard cast bullet.

I do use the speer gold dots in my .357 because I can load those up hot and its still easy to control. But I almost never carry the 4" .357 because three pounds of gun is not pleasant to carry all day.

For the snubbie the SWC's are a great bullet and I think they are a great choice for a defensive round.

 

[Hardtarget]

Fast wad cutters for defense sounds reasonable. Does anyone make a gas check design? That might reduce the leading problem with higher velocities. That would be good even just target shooting.
Mark.

 

[Ritchie]

jibjab
Senior Member



Join Date: 08-18-05
Location: Oregon
Posts: 307 I bought 500 rnds of Accura plated .451 200 swc , I loaded 50/ with 6.5 unique and 50/ with 6.8 of unique. Niether load functioned well in my Colt MK IV 70 Ser.
the round would stop at barrel ramp. Some mags. worked better than others, but in all I had bad results.

I had the same thing happen with .45 SWC plated bullets from Xtreme Bullets of Carson City Nevada. This is a long-nosed design and the nose would stop on the bottom of the barrel ramp. With a little delicate reshaping and GI mags they work pretty well now for practice.

 

[joneb]

Thanks Ritchie,
I'll just run them through my Marlin camp carbine, it feeds these loads much better than the pistol.

 

[Skywarp]

I cant see modifying a gun to load ammo at all.


Seems silly to change a several hundred dollar object to feed a 10 cent object.

 

[Cosmoline]

You just have to get a wheelgun. They're better, anyway

 

[Skywarp]

Naw, I worked in a gun range I've seen how annoying revolvers get with high volume