Stoeger American Eagle Luger

I have one.
Pleasure to shoot & very accurate.

American Eagle Luger (or should I say P-08 ?)

I wish I had one that had the Mitchell Arms logo.

Where does Stoeger get off owning the name "Luger"? It is not fair and equable even though it may be legal. Stoeger just sat on it for years and never did anything with it. Then Mitchell came along, with innovative ideas, and Mr. S squashed it. How long can they own the name, with all that has happened, and there they are just sitting on it. Shouldn't the name Luger belong to the original George Luger, and even the patent date be expired ?

Gun owners rise up in rebellion, in this just cause !

""Patents expire"

The name Luger is a trademark, not a patent.

Patents are for unique devices and processes. Trademarks are for names.

Trademarks essentially can be retained as long as the owner actively uses them, and defends against against others using them. Stoeger has held the US Trademark for the word "Luger" since the 1920's, having been the US Importer for German made ones since the very beginning.


Some interesting early Stoeger Luger info here:

http://www.landofborchardt.com/stoeger.html


Willie

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Aimco of Houston made the Luger and Mitchell marketed them. Stoeger bought the rights to sell them and the name "Luger" was able to appear on the gun. Funny, the name "Luger" appears nowhere on my 1938 Mauser built P08.

A local shop had an Aimco/Mitchell (not to be confused with Mitchell's Mauser) for sale for $550. I was tempted but just couldn't warm up to a stainless Luger. I would note that they did produce a stainless version that was black. Prices on these guns are all over the place. I have heard both good and bad as to reliability, mostly good. I have also heard reports of some issues with steel strength with some early guns, but the info seems vague and therefore, to me, questionable. The mags only hold seven as opposed to eight but work the best in my 1938 Mauser. The build quality of the Aimco/Mitchell appeared very impressive with only a few contours that to me looked just a hair off. A very pretty gun.

For $500 or so the gun to me would be well worth the expenditure if you can live with stainless. For much more than that I would find a real Luger. With some luck one can still find a nice shooter under $1000. Earlier this year, after passing on the Aimco, I paid $875 for a 1938 in 90% condition (original finish) with a bright shiny bore, all matching parts except one (the internal bolt hold open lever), with after market grips (which I have since replaced). The gun shoots like a dream. To me it was worth it to pay $325 more to have a real Luger that is still only a shooter.

Russian Captures and VOPO (East German police refurbs) can also offer a quality shooter.

Trademarks essentially can be retained as long as the owner actively uses them, and defends against against others using them. Stoeger has held the US Trademark for the word "Luger" since the 1920's, having been the US Importer for German made ones since the very beginning.

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A lot of well-established companies continue to publish a small amount of OLD trademarks in very limited distributions, or in limited production runs of "classic" products, thereby "actively using them." This allows them to retain control of those OLD trademarks, thereby keeping others from using them.

To Luger or Not to Luger ? That is the question !

Robert said:

The Luger is like a swiss watch. It is complex to build and maintain. Why put that much as effort into the cost of production and tooling if you will never make that money back.

Rise up over a luger? Really? There are far more important facing us today than who owns the Luger name...

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In my posting # 3, I was not advocating insurrection, merely protesting in a suitable manner (i.e., email, letter, non-purchasing of products, et al).

Mitchell had several innovative ideas and products. In the "Luger" case, Stoeger seemed to discourage these positive efforts, after sitting on the Luger trademark, doing nothing with it for several years, until Mitchell marketed the SS Luger. The only Mitchell item I've ever purchased was a collapsible stock for the AR-7 .22 rifle. I now have the option of using this handier stock, or the original bulky, floatable one.

Willie Sutton's posting # 5 correctly differentiates patent and trademark.

Given the state of new CNC manufacturing, there is ZERO reason for someone not to make a Luger.
Or a Mauser Red-9 auto-pistol...and if you didn't wanna fight for the name "Luger",
just remake the KGP68A...nifty little pistol that needed to be all-steel and a wee bit more hand-fitted...
and sized up a wee bit for 9mm & .45acp, instead of/plus its original .32acp & .380acp


The smart thing would be to do it in the Southern US, namely around Pensacola, FL...
wages are low there, you could get tons of ret. military workers for 10-12 an hour...
taxes are nearly non-existant...as long as you aren't on the beach...
two railroad hubs, right on I-10, close to I-65, can get anything anywhere in the US within 2 Days.
and the land is CHEAP away from the beaches...like the idea of 1K per acre??
Construction costs are again low, we don't even have an illegal problem here...
due to the regular folks working for 8-10 per hour, even illegals won't do it that cheap

If you wonder why so many Gun Mfr's are moving out of the North into the South...
those are the reasons why That and we are GUN FRIENDLY!!

Big Shrek,
Check out Chiappa to see just how 'easy' it is to do CNC copies of the old designs. Do Luger blueprints (production blueprints with tolerances and processes) even exist anymore? Are the old processes even doable with CNC, or is there stuff like broaching or surface grinding of forge hardened parts necessary (both very common in older production techniques, but both poorly suited to a CNC or low-production fab shop). The Chiappa copies of Old West items are very expensive compared to, say, Marlins, and still require additional touch up work in too many cases (to the point that some lever gun smiths won't work on them). Remington ran into the same issue with the 'Remlins,' which were the direct result of the new owners attempting to modernize their production processes.

I'd want a remake Borchardt C93 before a Mauser (I have a beater .30cal --they ain't all that , and a C93 has 10X the "weird" factor ). Also, having detail-stripped my C96, I'm pretty sure you'd need 5-axis (or more!) machines to make a good number of the parts, meaning your finished pistol would be priced in line with low-end turbine engine blades

TCB

As I understand it -- which may not be correct -- the COSTS of setting up CNC production (and, similarly, MIM production) is very expensive, and only justified IF you can produce and sell a lot of the desired product -- thousands or tens of thousands, not hundreds.

While Lugers are great guns -- I've owned two [a shooter and a collectible] -- having one with a lot of parts that didn't require a good bit of handfitting would be nice-- I don't know that there'd be a lot of demand unless you could get the price down pretty low.

(I never fired my "collectible" Luger, but the other one -- a Soviet capture with a badly corroded barrel -- was a real tack-driver. And once I got some new mags, pretty reliable.

If anyone wants a shiny new Luger, they can start searching for one of the handful of factory hard-chromed Parabellums produced by Mauser in the 1970s.

Krieghoff ran off 200 Lugers starting around 2005.
Last price was $18,500.
I wonder if they found some old parts. It seems strange to tool up for 200 overpriced guns.
Overpriced? Yes, when you could have a pristine WW II Kreighoff Luger bought by ol' Hermann for the Luftwaffe for a quarter the money.

I WAS SENT one of the Mitchell Stainless Steel LUGERS back when for T&E.
Seventyfive rounds of factory 9MM PARABELLUM ammunition turned the innards of that pistol into useless battered pieces of shiq ! It must have been mades outta old beer cans and I hardly exaggerate !!
Don Mitchell swore it was the first time he'd ever heard of such a thing and would replace it immediately.... [or in fifty years whichever comes last.
REMEMBER THIS: Don MItchell was one of people who helped trash the HIGH STANDARD MANUFACTURING COMPANY back when.
Don Mitchell was also one of the biggest flop CEO's in COLT PATENT FIREARMS MANUFACTURING COMPANY and damn near trashed it beyond redemption.
And so it goes...

Very enlightening! Thanks!

Hey Will, very insightful to hear some corroboration as to the rumblings I have heard about the integrity of the steel used for the Mitchell's. I had heard that later examples were much better, but your info puts the whole shebang into doubt as Mitchell got involved with Aimco later in the game. One way or the other, it resolves any doubt I had passing on the one that I came across. Too hard to know what you are getting. Funny thing is that when I was on my way to score my 1938 S/42 Mauser I stopped off to see if that Aimco (don't know if it was a Mitchell's gun) was still available. Glad it was gone.

Still, the best bet is to find a shooter grade real Luger unless collecting is the goal. Funny thing is that from what I hear many of the Russian Captures have all matching numbered parts.

Storm said:

Still, the best bet is to find a shooter grade real Luger unless collecting is the goal. Funny thing is that from what I hear many of the Russian Captures have all matching numbered parts.

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My Russian capture Mauser Luger is all matching, but since it was re-blued, and had the wooden stocks replaced by black plastic for storage by the Russians their is no collector value. It is a great shooter though, and I have NEVER had a failure with using any type of 9MM ammo, even hollow points. Very accurate too.

Pilot said:

My Russian capture Mauser Luger is all matching, but since it was re-blued, and had the wooden stocks replaced by black plastic for storage by the Russians their is no collector value. It is a great shooter though, and I have NEVER had a failure with using any type of 9MM ammo, even hollow points. Very accurate too.

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Where in the world can you now find a Russian Capture Luger?
I tried j&g Sales and SOG.
Do you know of any other possible sources?

I haven't seen any Soviet-captured Lugers since the late 1990s -- wish I could find one.

The one I had was all matching except for the side plate (covering the part that released the striker (or was it the sear?)

It looked pretty good, but had a badly corroded barrel, near the chamber, internally. Despite that, it shot like a target pistol!. Had to replace a few parts over a couple of years. Later traded it for a NIB CZ-75. Wish I had another. Great guns.

Gun Master said:

Where in the world can you now find a Russian Capture Luger?
I tried j&g Sales and SOG.
Do you know of any other possible sources?

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I bought mine in 1994 for $300. Wish I could find them now at this price.

I have seen a couple of Russian Captures and VOPO on Gunbroker, but other than that they seem fairly rare these days. I keep hearing folks talk about $600 shooters, but I'm not seeing that.

Chiappa makes CHEAP copies...I can say that having had one...

Marlin went thru the expected growing pains...the 2014's are easily comparable to the pre-2000 Marlins.
Although the synth stock is still a wee bit too flexxy for me...but it works.
An XT22-MVSR is still on my Hot List...when I can stop buying old guns long enough to order a new one

But the main thing is...there has to be a cost-efficient way to make a P08 copy!!

Or at least a better copy of the ERMA KGP68A series...we know that one was inexpensive...
The Look and Feel were there, just needed a slightly better extractor/ejector system
Or at least a better hand-fit on it, as mine did...

Big Shrek said:

Chiappa makes CHEAP copies...I can say that having had one...

Marlin went thru the expected growing pains...the 2014's are easily comparable to the pre-2000 Marlins.
Although the synth stock is still a wee bit too flexxy for me...but it works.
An XT22-MVSR is still on my Hot List...when I can stop buying old guns long enough to order a new one

But the main thing is...there has to be a cost-efficient way to make a P08 copy!!

Or at least a better copy of the ERMA KGP68A series...we know that one was inexpensive...
The Look and Feel were there, just needed a slightly better extractor/ejector system
Or at least a better hand-fit on it, as mine did...

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I had malfunctions with my .22 and .380 Ermas, many years ago. Although they looked like a nice Luger, I was very disappointed.

Wish someone would pick up on you above idea, though.