Everyone jettisoning .40 S&W?

MHS program...

I'm skeptical of the big MHS program(the plan to get new M9s).

I think it will be cut at any minute due to budget issues & funding.
The concept of the US armed forces having multiple small arms is flawed and a few elected officials in the US Senate/Congress are against it.

The SCAR rifle program is a good example. 11 different prototype rifles were put in for T&Es and all of them failed to meet the DoD/military requirements.

At present I have a couple of .40's a 9mm & a .45. I like each of them for different reasons, different purposes. Everyone makes their own choices. Shoot what you like.

"Also, looks like the US Army is looking to "jettison" the 9mm."

Wanna place a small wager on that?

The 9x19mm in military circles....

Over time I think the 9mmNATO or 9x19mm will be phased out by the US armed forces but like the older .45acp it will take 15-20 years.
The M9s & M11s will stay in armories for the next few FYs.
Spec ops may get new pistols but they have a separate budget & procurement system.

Older posts pointed to a 10mm/.41AE/.40 caliber type semi auto round for the MHS trials but nothing has been official just yet.

MIL-DOT said:

I think one factor is that the 9mil is easier to shoot for women and desk jockeys. Also, 9mil is a little cheaper, and the newer projectiles are highly efficient, a larger bullet isn't the end-all solution it was once thought to be.
More rounds in the magazine is another plus, though i doubt that was much of a factor in the decision.
BTW, I haven't had anything chambered in .40 for several years, but I did keep a few boxes of ammo in case one fell my way again (that philosophy has come in handy a few times already.)

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Nope, the consideration is penetration. Read The explanations the FBI provided. More penetration, more rounds, and easier to regain sight picture in string of shots, combined with newer superior ammo. Desk jockeys and women shooters had nothing to do with it. Superior firepower was the only consideration. Personally, I never cared for .40, but that's just me. The "stopping power between the two is non-existent.

Russellc

Mike J said:

At present I have a couple of .40's a 9mm & a .45. I like each of them for different reasons, different purposes. Everyone makes their own choices. Shoot what you like.

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Well put. The stopping power of all three leaves a lot to be desired when compared to rifles.

Russellc

breacher said:

I think the 357 Sig will disappear long before the 40 ever will. I know of several LE agencies that have left the caliber because of the high price of ammo. -NMSP

I had a few pistols in 357 but gave up on it myself because it's a little more tedious to reload compared to straight walled pistol cases.

I also ditched all my nines during the ammo shortage (I wasn't reloading nine because it used to be cheap). So now now it's forty all day everyday. I even got my daughter into competition shooting with me by downloading 40's to a 130 power factor that she enjoys shooting from her new M&P40.

At the other end of the spectrum, I've clocked 135gr Nosler JHP's at over 1500fps from my 5.3" Glock 35 at well under reloading book max with Longshot powder! So who needs a 357 Sig anyways. (That was kinda snappy)

Nothing a nine can do that a 40 can't do mo' betta'.

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As to .40"mo better" it just simply isnt so. Read the FBI materials.

So far, this is what I've found that came from the FBI:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...c0f178480b6ce1c3922566274ea&tab=core&_cview=0

There may be something from the FBI that states they are moving to the 9mm that I was unable to find. Anyone have a link? Or, is a "pre-solicitation notice" equivalent to such an announcement?

Personally, I like a quote I read years ago that went something like: "I don't have to read the back of the box to know if I like the cereal."

In the past, the FBI's listed specific criteria of performance that lead them to choose the 10mm/.40 S&W. Possibly they've created new criteria and made a different choice.

I'm pretty sure my criteria and theirs are not identical. Certainly, I don't have the logistics concerns about maintaining thousands of guns that have been "shot loose" from .40 S&W or accommodating people with divergent firearms skills.

But one thing I've concluded, if I'm ever in a gun fight, many other factors will more important than my using 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

TestPilot said:

Not worried at all about 40S&W going away.

So many people want a pistol more powerful than 9mm without the 45ACP grip size.

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Never felt the Glock 36, the 30 SF or the 30S? Not to mention the Springfield arms SD?. One thing I will say about .40, when no reloading components could be found, there always seem to be brass and bullets for .40. Same thing with ammo.

Russellc

harrygunner said:

So far, this is what I've found that came from the FBI:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...c0f178480b6ce1c3922566274ea&tab=core&_cview=0

There may be something from the FBI that states they are moving to the 9mm that I was unable to find. Anyone have a link? Or, is a "pre-solicitation notice" equivalent to such an announcement?

Personally, I like a quote I read years ago that went something like: "I don't have to read the back of the box to know if I like the cereal."

In the past, the FBI's listed specific criteria of performance that lead them to choose the 10mm/.40 S&W. Possibly they've created new criteria and made a different choice.

I'm pretty sure my criteria and theirs are not identical. Certainly, I don't have the logistics concerns about maintaining thousands of guns that have been "shot loose" from .40 S&W or accommodating people with divergent firearms skills.

But one thing I've concluded, if I'm ever in a gun fight, many other factors will more important than my using 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

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I'll see if I can find the links, 2 different articles that basically said same thing. The short of it was pistols are not that great at being a man stopper, and newer ammo provided deeper penetration to major organs, which they now think seems to be a superior goal than the previous, "bigger hole is better" thoughts. Also more bullets available, and greater ease at keeping on target in multi shot strings.

I've read articles, but was looking for something from the FBI.

This isnt the one, but it contains some of the FBI thoughts and statements I saw in them. Scroll down to "The FBI justification"

http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

Same info, but some more penetration info:

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/69719858/m/6730080513001

More of the same:

http://concealednation.org/2014/10/...d-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

Its not like they are saying 9mm is the magic man stopper, Its basically that .40, and for that matter .45 isnt any better. The 9mm "advantage" is that it has as good penetration, more rounds on board and easier to control in multi shot strings. Loads of data their decision was based on.

As others have said, military is looking at .40, some spec. ops considering .45.
Go figure.

Russellc

I read those second hand accounts a few days ago. People are posting about wanting to switch based on this new FBI announcement.

If they are what the FBI is using for the new conclusion, they pale in comparison to the testing they conducted before.

To me, it's a rumor of reasoning that boils down to "all service rounds are about the same, so let's go with the 9mm".

I can't argue against that since, as I alluded to in my first post, service handgun caliber wars are a waste of time since surviving a gunfight will involve more important factors.

I traded my only 40 earlier this year....now here I sit on 100's of rounds of ammo, a set of 40/10 dies and a bunch of brass.


That can only mean one thing....I need a 40. Don't really want one to shoot because my old one I maybe shot 50 times.

Never felt the Glock 36, the 30 SF or the 30S?

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I have a minimum capacity requirement for a primary pistol.

I have no use for that category of pistol:

Too big for sub-compact. Too limited for a primary pistol.

That's the reason my M&P40 Compact is rarely carried.

I jettisoned .40 at least ten years ago, after owning at least a half dozen of them. Had the G23 for about ten years.
Some see the .40 as the perfect compromise between 9mm and .45acp. Some see it as the worst of both worlds. After owning a bunch of each, I fall in the latter category. If I want a larger bullet, I have several .45s of different sizes and capacities. If I want a small pistol, I have my PM9.

now here I sit on 100's of rounds of ammo, a set of 40/10 dies and a bunch of brass.
That can only mean one thing....I need a 40.

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No, you are overlooking the obvious. What you really need is a 10mm, the ".40 Mag"
The 10mm is a match made in Heaven for handloaders. Perhaps the most versatile semi-auto round ever designed, and equivalent to the .357 for revolver shooters. You can put together anything from a powder puff to a nuclear load in 10mm. And there are "almost enough" 10mm handguns out there, including two Glocks, if that's your gig (G-20 and G-29). Several 1911s in varying quality and price, and the EAA Witness semi auto that I have not experienced, but many seem to speak highly of.

In all fairness, 10mm brass is expensive (while .40 brass is free, or nearly so, if you do it right) but you only have to buy it once.

FWIW, I gave up on .44Spl at about the same time. I have .357Mag, .41Mag and .45LC, so .44Sp is redundant (IMHO).

Big beautiful world out there. Enjoy.

I own a lot of pistols and a lot of pistol calibers. 40 is one of the few I've never owned and have little to no interest in owning.

I have nothing useful to add to this conversation...except that I picked up a Glock 32 last year that came with a OEM .40 barrel. I then purchased a Lone Wolf 9mm conversation barrel, so I now have one gun that shoots three different calibers.

I mainly shoot 9mm, but I keep the G32 for the next serious ammo shortage.

TMann

I saw good old FMJ .40 flat nose stagger a guy! The round broke his hip bone and that took the fight right out of him quickly!

OneSevenDeuce said:

Vaguely related to this subject… Whenever I hear someone say "knock down power" I stop listening.

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That viewpoint makes a lot of sense. But after killing and seeing hundreds of deer killed, I came to believe that some rifle loads certainly kill faster than others.

Carrying this idea into handgun hunting and hunting with saboted handgun bullets from muzzleloaders, I gotta say that some handgun bullets drop deer faster than others.

And if its true for deer, it just might be true for bad guys too. Better to keep an open mind.

HKGuns said:

I own a lot of pistols and a lot of pistol calibers. 40 is one of the few I've never owned and have little to no interest in owning.

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My first .40 was an HK USP full size w/ stainless slide and it felt like a 9mm. I tried a friends Glock 22 shortly after and realized the HK soaks up recoil better.

I only have one .40 left, a P99 compact which is actually for sale. Found a rare CZ RAMI and had to have it especially as it's the third CZ pistol I own that I can put my 22 conversion on..lol

I don't think the Army is going to "jettison" the 9mm.

Why introduce more logistic complexity into the theater of operations for a weapon system that really is not a difference maker anyway.