Everyone jettisoning .40 S&W?
- Thread starter OneSevenDeuce
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OneSevenDeuce
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Berger, there are several reasons I say that. First, "knock down power" is incredibly ill defined. Second, it has been demonstrated pretty well over e years that thee isn't a whole lot of difference between comparable rounds of different common handgun calibers. Another thing is that it has been mentioned that ER doctors are unable to tell any appreciable difference between wounds created with 9mm, 40, and 45. That, and because the people I usually hear talking about stopping power also follow it up with "Yeah, a .45 will stop someone with one shot."
SouthernDawg
Member
The 40 cal is also harder on the weapon and they don't last as long.
I will have to disagree with that. I have and old Ruger P91 That I have been shooting for 11 yrs and I would say it has at around 20k run through it thats just what I have put through it. And I have no Idea how many that has been through it before I bought it. It still shoots just as good if not better than when I bought it! Its 21 yrs old and all original except for the blocker lever.
Dawg
I will have to disagree with that. I have and old Ruger P91 That I have been shooting for 11 yrs and I would say it has at around 20k run through it thats just what I have put through it. And I have no Idea how many that has been through it before I bought it. It still shoots just as good if not better than when I bought it! Its 21 yrs old and all original except for the blocker lever.
Dawg
If I say the sky is falling
I'll bet a lot of you will start running for your bunkers.
I see a lot of used AR-15s in gun racks right now. That must mean that the most popular military styled rifle in this country is losing favor.
The gun racks are also full of used AK's, maybe no one wants them anymore.
Used Hi-cap 40's filling the shelves it must be that people that didn't know any better have wised up and are selling their Glock and S&W 40s.
OR MAYBE...........
A bunch of people who never owned a gun before ran out and bought overpriced AR-15's that they couldn't afford in the first place and are selling them at a loss for more essential things like food.
The same goes for AKs. The world was ending, no one was ever going to be able to buy a gun again, so they went out and put one or two on their credit cards.
As for the glut of surplus used 40's on the market that is as easy to explain. the 40 IS THE MOST POPULAR LAW ENFORCEMENT CALIBER IN THE US. It is also not a caliber for most beginners in lightweight polymer pistols. Unfortunately a lot of new gun buyers ran out thinking "if it is good enough for the cops, it is good enough for me". It is a lot like what used to happen with women and small framed revolvers and 380 pistols. If someone asked which gun to get for a woman people always answered with snub nose 38 or 380. Unfortunately these guns are not generally pleasant to shoot and they, like the 40s, lined the used gun shelves.
There are lot of reasons trends happen. Maybe people are trading in their 40'for 9mms because they are easier to shoot and they are also cheaper to shoot.
Maybe they are selling guns they couldn't afford in the first place.
Or maybe, like a lot of us, they just changed their minds.
Honestly, I don't think I see any more 40's for sale than 9mms, or 45s around here.
For the record, I own handguns in all the popular calibers and the only one I don't carry are the ones in 9mm. If I need a pocket gun it is a 380. If I need a Hi-cap wundergun, it is my Glock 23 over my 19. My EDC is a 1911 and I can not understand why anyone would carry a 1911 in any caliber other than 45, or maybe 10mm, but certainly not 9mm.
Feel free to disagree with any or all of what I have said. It is America and you still have the right to your opinion even if it is wrong.
I'll bet a lot of you will start running for your bunkers.
I see a lot of used AR-15s in gun racks right now. That must mean that the most popular military styled rifle in this country is losing favor.
The gun racks are also full of used AK's, maybe no one wants them anymore.
Used Hi-cap 40's filling the shelves it must be that people that didn't know any better have wised up and are selling their Glock and S&W 40s.
OR MAYBE...........
A bunch of people who never owned a gun before ran out and bought overpriced AR-15's that they couldn't afford in the first place and are selling them at a loss for more essential things like food.
The same goes for AKs. The world was ending, no one was ever going to be able to buy a gun again, so they went out and put one or two on their credit cards.
As for the glut of surplus used 40's on the market that is as easy to explain. the 40 IS THE MOST POPULAR LAW ENFORCEMENT CALIBER IN THE US. It is also not a caliber for most beginners in lightweight polymer pistols. Unfortunately a lot of new gun buyers ran out thinking "if it is good enough for the cops, it is good enough for me". It is a lot like what used to happen with women and small framed revolvers and 380 pistols. If someone asked which gun to get for a woman people always answered with snub nose 38 or 380. Unfortunately these guns are not generally pleasant to shoot and they, like the 40s, lined the used gun shelves.
There are lot of reasons trends happen. Maybe people are trading in their 40'for 9mms because they are easier to shoot and they are also cheaper to shoot.
Maybe they are selling guns they couldn't afford in the first place.
Or maybe, like a lot of us, they just changed their minds.
Honestly, I don't think I see any more 40's for sale than 9mms, or 45s around here.
For the record, I own handguns in all the popular calibers and the only one I don't carry are the ones in 9mm. If I need a pocket gun it is a 380. If I need a Hi-cap wundergun, it is my Glock 23 over my 19. My EDC is a 1911 and I can not understand why anyone would carry a 1911 in any caliber other than 45, or maybe 10mm, but certainly not 9mm.
Feel free to disagree with any or all of what I have said. It is America and you still have the right to your opinion even if it is wrong.
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Berger.Fan222
Member
I agree that one needs a good definition for "knock down power." We always used the distance the deer ran after getting shot.
I believe there may not be a difference between the range of wounding possible between the 9mm, 40, and 45. However, I've gutted enough deer to know that within any single caliber some handgun bullets create a lot more wounding than others. These tended to result in deer not running as far after getting shot.
Berger.Fan222
Member
This is a frequent misconception. The momentum of the bullet equals the momentum of the recoiling gun. The energy of the bullet is much larger than the energy of the recoiling gun.
No one with half a brain thinks momentum transfer is knocking human sized targets down, but rather that the physiological disruption of some bullets causes humans to fall down faster than others.
I believe that's not correct. For every action there is an oposite and equal reaction, which means that whatever the energy is from the bullet going forward there will be an equal rearward enrgy reaction. It's the law of physics.
If you push a car with your hands you must push backward with your feet just as hard in order to move the car. The same law of physics applies to bullets.
Lycidas Janwor
Member
I love my Gen 3 G23. Love.It. I'm considering buying a few more .40 semi auto pistols because they are so cheap. I don't own a 9mm pistol and I see no reason to buy a 9mm pistol (I don't plan on living outside the USA either). I may eventually buy a .45 but it will be purely for the fun of it, not out of necessity.
give me your forty!
give me your forty!
gojones
Member
Just found out here in central Alabama that SIG has offered to replace all Glocks (40's) with SIG 9mm free just to increase presence in law enforcement in our area. They just have to turn in their Glock to SIG.
OneSevenDeuce
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Hmmm, that's interesting. Where did you hear that?
powwowell
Member
I did own and shoot a .40 S&W Hi-Power. I didn't like it and could't make myself like it. I don't miss it a bit. I have seen the time, due to availability of .40 ammunition, that I had kept the Hi-Power.
I reload .380, 9mm, .45ACP, .357 and .38 Special. I have never owned .40 S&W dies.
I shoot more 9mm than anything else. Every since I got the Glock 42, I shoot a lot of .380. I'm still amazed with how much I like this little pistol. I have a couple of 1911s and a Glock 21, so .45ACP gets shot every range trip.
I don't foresee the .40 S&W ever being in my house again.
I reload .380, 9mm, .45ACP, .357 and .38 Special. I have never owned .40 S&W dies.
I shoot more 9mm than anything else. Every since I got the Glock 42, I shoot a lot of .380. I'm still amazed with how much I like this little pistol. I have a couple of 1911s and a Glock 21, so .45ACP gets shot every range trip.
I don't foresee the .40 S&W ever being in my house again.
I have family in Enterprise, AL. Would you please post source and details so I can pass this on.
The .40 S&W cartridge is a culmination of engineering excellence for the auto loading pistol. It gives better feeding properties and stacking capabilities.
Just take 8 .40 rounds and 8 9x19 rounds and lay them on a flat surface such as a table. Line them up and then squeeze them together. You will quickly see that the 9x19 rounds form an arc because of their tapered design. The .40 will stack straight. Now you know why there has not been a single stack Glock 9x19 mm pistol so far.
The 9x17 Corto (.380 ACP) is also a straight stacker and that is why Glock produced the new model 42.
The .45 ACP is a very low pressure round and I have seen them bounce off a car windshield where as the .40 S&W went right through like it was paper because of the high pressure loading.
I have shot my Glock 9x19 pistols along side my Glock .40 S&W and can not feel a noticeable difference in recoil at all. In fact, the recoil spring are the same for Glock 9x19 and .40 S&W models and completely interchangeable.
I am no mechanical engineer but I know what I can see and feel to form my opinions as to this subject. Beside we all know what they say about opinions anyway LOL! Just my2 cents worth. I am with the .40 S&W round is here to stay for a very long time.
Just take 8 .40 rounds and 8 9x19 rounds and lay them on a flat surface such as a table. Line them up and then squeeze them together. You will quickly see that the 9x19 rounds form an arc because of their tapered design. The .40 will stack straight. Now you know why there has not been a single stack Glock 9x19 mm pistol so far.
The 9x17 Corto (.380 ACP) is also a straight stacker and that is why Glock produced the new model 42.
The .45 ACP is a very low pressure round and I have seen them bounce off a car windshield where as the .40 S&W went right through like it was paper because of the high pressure loading.
I have shot my Glock 9x19 pistols along side my Glock .40 S&W and can not feel a noticeable difference in recoil at all. In fact, the recoil spring are the same for Glock 9x19 and .40 S&W models and completely interchangeable.
I am no mechanical engineer but I know what I can see and feel to form my opinions as to this subject. Beside we all know what they say about opinions anyway LOL! Just my2 cents worth. I am with the .40 S&W round is here to stay for a very long time.
Nom de Forum
Member
Really?! No 9mm single stack pistols so far because of tapered cartridges. I sure hope someone invents one of those some day. Perhaps they could make it interesting by using a lever delayed locking system or a toggle locking system and a very comfortable grip, that would be interesting.
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In all my years shooting 9X19 I have never had feeding problems. Who cares how the round looks laying on a table as long as it feeds which is a problem 9X19 does not have.
As for shooting through windshields, even the lowely 380 can do that. Doubt that? Check out this 380 vs auto windshield
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FhfKSXWLNxg
CoalTrain49
Member
I agree, they have a pretty good lab and are able to seriously analyse ballistics in depth. But it's just a lab and ammo and firearms mfg's have access to labs also. If they didn't they wouldn't be able to develop the SD ammo we now have. The FBI didn't come up with the 40, S&W did. The reason they did was to sell some guns to the FBI who thought they needed another cartridge. All they really needed to do was enhance the 9 mm like they did the 38 spl. They had already spec'd the 38+P as the performance goal for the new auto. Once the 40 cartridge was available and the FBI had it, just about every LE agency in the country had to have it because the FBI had it. The FBI isn't the gold standard it was back in the day but the media and Hollywood likes to keep the legend alive.
The FBI is a gov't agency. They spent years and hundreds of thousands of dollars analyzing the problem and let a firearms mfg tell them what they needed. Basically they bought a bill of goods that they didn't need. Even someone like me who isn't a ballistics tech would surmise that an increase in psi would yield higher performance just as it did with 38 and 38+p. The 40 has the same psi as a 9 mm so they really didn't gain much in the general scheme of things. That was proven when 9+p came on the market a few years after the 40 was developed. I suspect that just about everyone in the firearms industry at the time knew it was a marketing ploy for gov't agencies. It seems it worked beyond anyone's wildest dreams. Sig watched all of these shenanigans and the 357 Sig was born. Both the 40 and 357 Sig will become has-been's in a few years. Start collecting 357 Sig brass if you would like to make a little profit down the road.
There are a lot of people working for the fed with too much time on their hands and budgets they don't need.
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In my humble opinion the best single stack 9x19 pistol is already here and an engineering master piece from Justin Moon at Kahr Arms. He has several patents to sustain his engineering prominence with his off set feed ramp and shortened over all length design. Mr. Moon has also learned from experience that you just cant stack more than 6 rounds of tapered 9x19 or you get into feeding problems.
Kel Tec is still struggling with this phenomenon with their PF 9 seven round pocket rocket from what I was told when at their factory in Florida a few years ago. I really don't ever see Glock producing a single stack 9x19 as they are are having excellent success with their model 26 double stack in the world market.
But these are just my opinions and Glock and Kahr got my money and I am very satisfied with their designs and functionality. The simple truth is that they have never failed me at any time and that is all that is important to me. I trust my life to them every single day.
Now to get back on point, I will reiterate my opinion and position that the .40 S&W round will remain the main stay of the law enforcement community in this country and of our Federal agencies such as the FBI that issues Glock 23 and 27 pistols to every new class of academy graduates.
No need to get excited because I have this opinion, LOL. I carry a G 27 issued sidearm everyday and I like it very much. Is that okay to state on this forum? Yes I am a Glock fan and a Kahr fan. I am firmly convinced that they are superbly designed guns that I buy without any hesitations.
Kel Tec is still struggling with this phenomenon with their PF 9 seven round pocket rocket from what I was told when at their factory in Florida a few years ago. I really don't ever see Glock producing a single stack 9x19 as they are are having excellent success with their model 26 double stack in the world market.
But these are just my opinions and Glock and Kahr got my money and I am very satisfied with their designs and functionality. The simple truth is that they have never failed me at any time and that is all that is important to me. I trust my life to them every single day.
Now to get back on point, I will reiterate my opinion and position that the .40 S&W round will remain the main stay of the law enforcement community in this country and of our Federal agencies such as the FBI that issues Glock 23 and 27 pistols to every new class of academy graduates.
No need to get excited because I have this opinion, LOL. I carry a G 27 issued sidearm everyday and I like it very much. Is that okay to state on this forum? Yes I am a Glock fan and a Kahr fan. I am firmly convinced that they are superbly designed guns that I buy without any hesitations.
Stony
Member
I started to post here to rant about all the "sky is falling...and it's raining discarded .40's" crap, but on second thought it wouldn't do any good. A good caliber like the .40 will be around for many years and serves it's intended purpose very well...even if a guy can buy a box of 9mm's for 50 cents less or some other rediculous reason.
420Stainless
Member
I love the Kahr design as well and have carried a PM45 most of the time going on 2 or 3 years now. I have one 40 S&W pistol and love it also, but it is larger than the Kahr. Being from the bigger bore is better school, I prefer the .45 to .40, and the .40 to 9mm as far carrying for self defense. If people are jettisoning their .40 S&W I might need to look into acquiring another at a bargain price.
P5 Guy
Member
S&W Model 39, 39-2, several second and third generation semi-autos and the M&P Shield. I think I read in the interweb they are made in 9mm single stacks. Walther P38 and Walther P5 and PPS
george burns
Member
45 for a large hole, 9mm for capacity. Since all pistol rounds in the 9-45 are fairly close as far as what they will do, there really is no reason to argue about it. We will use what is available. As long as a caliber exists, someone will use it, and swear that it is the best thing out there.
All pistol calibers are limited, I personally would rather have either the one that makes the largest hole, or the one that has the most rounds.
Why go in between, the object is to win the fight with a carry gun. To do so you need to either hit it several times, or hit it in the right spot.
These are short distance self protection guns designed to stop people from doing what they are doing. They aren't rifles.
All pistol calibers are limited, I personally would rather have either the one that makes the largest hole, or the one that has the most rounds.
Why go in between, the object is to win the fight with a carry gun. To do so you need to either hit it several times, or hit it in the right spot.
These are short distance self protection guns designed to stop people from doing what they are doing. They aren't rifles.
How very true. If I get any advanced notice that there is a gun involved in a situation I am going to, I go for the M4 and 4 extra mags stoked with NATO green tips light armor piercing. If there is any through and through that is what we pay the lawyers for. I going home at night.
Now I have seen Hickok 45 shoot a Glock 23 and a 27 .40 S&W at 230 yards on You Tube and I can hit pretty good out at 100 yards with mine so there is a very predictable trajectory factor of the .40 S&W round in my opinion!
Now I have seen Hickok 45 shoot a Glock 23 and a 27 .40 S&W at 230 yards on You Tube and I can hit pretty good out at 100 yards with mine so there is a very predictable trajectory factor of the .40 S&W round in my opinion!
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