Using the starting loads

spitballer · Oct 21, 2014

R. Lee recommends in his reloading manual to save unnecessary wear and tear on equipment by using the starting loads. I have discovered that with lighter charges, tight groups can be maintained up until a certain point when the rounds at the top of the group start rolling left and right. Sure, I can continue to add pressure and they'll eventually start forming another, higher group and eventually I can actually get that upper group to tighten up beautifully into a single, ragged hole.

But is all that match-grade pressure really necessary? If I have to decide between the low group and the high group, wouldn't it be smart to go with the low group and save wear and tear on equipment like Mr. Lee suggests, even if I'm getting a little blow by and lobbing those lower groups without such a flat trajectory?

Can anyone else corroborate this phenomenon?

jwrowland77 · Oct 21, 2014

Depends on your final goal.

Most the time, I can find two nodes in the powder scale that my barrel likes. One on low end, one of high end. If my final goal is say a hunting round, then I'll go with the less abusive but very accurate load, since most the time I shoot at deer less than 100yds. Say I was hunting where a 300-500 yards shot might take place, I'd go upper end accurate load.

Now take my match ammo, that I use for 1000yd comps. I use a .308 Win. I'm going to have to have the velocity as well as the accuracy to get there without it going subsonic and possibly keyholing.

In short, your ammo needs to match your intended application.

witchhunter · Oct 21, 2014

Jrowland nailed it. Load for what you are going to use it for.

spitballer · Oct 22, 2014

jwrowland77 said:
Most the time, I can find two nodes in the powder scale that my barrel likes. One on low end, one of high end.

- This actually makes good sense to me. I can no doubt find the upper node if I were to continue adding pressure and make note of it for reference, but I also wanted to check with others to see if they typically get the same type of pattern during the transition from low node to high node. Usually during transition I'll start to get two subgroups, upper left and upper right (see photo). Rounds that remain with the main lower group are still centered and tight. My strategy thus far has been to keep pressure just below the point where the upper subgroups begin to form.

The attached photo illustrates (hopefully) the typical patterns that I get during transition:

Shown are two groups of ten shots, Using 55 grain Nosler BT bullets with IMR 3031 powder, Nosler cases and CCI#400 primers. All rounds were seated .010" into the lands and rate of fire was approx. one round per minute.

The group on the left was charged with 22.1 grains of the 3031 (low node for me is 21.8-21.9). Note the two subgroups that have begun to form, upper left and upper right. The shots remaining in the main lower group are still tight, clean, and centered.

After raising the group up an inch with the scope, the second group was fired. The second group was charged with 22.15 grains, an increase of only 1/20th of a grain (I am not kidding you here)! The upper group is now defined, and with more pressure can be tightened into a ragged hole. Chrony data indicates that the new group has increased in velocity disproportionally to the increase in powder charge.

Is this a typical scenario for groups in transition to high node? Is the 'low node' what Mr. Lee refers to when he suggests using the starting loads? I get the same patterns with the 40 grainers, also.

jwrowland77 · Oct 22, 2014

Yes. You'll see your low node nice and tight. As you work the load up it'll spread out a bit and then you'll see it tighten up again once you start reaching your higher node. It's pretty fun to watch.

The only powder I have ever used that didn't follow this typical pattern was 2000-MR. The start load was wide and as I worked up the charges to the upper end, each higher load for tighter and tighter until I got to the load I stopped at and it was the tightest.

All the other powders I've tested do like yours here where it'll be nice and right near the bottom, then as I worked up the loads, it widened a bit, then as I kept shooting you'll see it tighten back up. Providing you don't get overpressure signs.

Schwing · Oct 22, 2014

I use a lot of lead cast bullets so I tend to stick to the low end. Like you mentioned, they tend to lose accuracy for a time as you work up your load until they tighten up again at the higher end. For lead bullets, they tighten up as well but often cause leading at that point. powder coating does mitigate this but it is a lot of work and, for just plinking rounds, I don't see the point.

When I do use jacketed or powder coated bullets, I often load on the high end but these are typically for things like .44 magnum where I just enjoy the bigger boom.

243winxb · Oct 22, 2014

Using 55 grain Nosler BT bullets in 223 Rem kept getting tighter groups as i increased the IMR 4198 powder charge. But IMR powder tends to do this with great bullets.

spitballer · Oct 22, 2014

Okay thanks for bearing with me on this, guys, this is very helpful. I'm confident that this pattern is not unexpected, then. I'll stick with the low node (LOL 'you take the high node, I'll take the low node') and concentrate on other areas like breathing and follow through and making my nodes cleaner and tighter; I agree with past suggestions by senior bloggers like Walkalong and A Leigh and others that technique, more than perfect reloads, is key to improving groups for all but the very best of shooters.

Thanks again, esp to jwrowland. I've taken away very helpful input from this thread. - TH

Sunray · Oct 22, 2014

"...unnecessary wear and tear on equipment by using the starting loads...." Nonsense. Starting loads are just that, where you start when working up a load. You do not just pick a load and hope it'll be accurate enough out of your rifle. The whole point of reloading is to use ammo that is tailored for your rifle, not saving wear and tear.
If this R. Lee's manual is Lee Precision, they test no loads whatsoever. The loads in Lee manuals come from the powder makers.

spitballer · Oct 22, 2014

The main reason I shoot is for the challenge of producing accurate loads of my own making, and it is helpful to me to have an understanding of how and why groups tighten under various conditions. This is tempered by the knowledge that other shooters with their high-node reloads can still outshoot me every time. Good for them - wish I could afford to do the same.

jwrowland77 · Oct 22, 2014

50% of the time, I use a low node accurate load to do my plinking and practicing. The other 50%, I have an intended purpose that I need to use higher node.

Hey, who doesn't like to save powder? Lol

spitballer · Oct 23, 2014

jwrowland77 said:
I use a low node accurate load to do my plinking and practicing.

Plinking and practicing would best describe my pursuits. Every weekend at the range is a lesson in applied science: How well did I estimate my powder charge for the week? How does the new OAL affect velocity? How does that second cup of coffee affect my hold on the target? All these factors come into play, and having the chrony to quantify my progress makes it all the better. But I've never forgotten that I share the range with other individuals from the military, law enforcement and the competitive ranks, for which the range is a much more serious pursuit.

The most important advances that I've made so far based on information from THR threads have been:

A) slowing my rate of fire to one round per minute

B) understanding the low and high node groups

The most important advance I've made based on practical experience at the range has been:

A) constructing a screen from PVC pipe and hardware cloth, to deflect those annoying cases from adjacent lanes.

Shooters who have worked hard to gather their secrets about reloading are understandably reluctant to divulge that hard-won information, too, so again I thank everyone for their constructive input. - TH

MrBorland · Oct 23, 2014

You can start with a starting load, but which powder to start with? And since the starting load is unlikely to be any closer to the best that any other starting point, I don't see how you'd save wear and tear in the long run, since you'd be just hunting and pecking for a good load.

And if you do happen to find an accurate low-end starting load, to what end? I suppose I can see the appeal if your rifle's a range gun, your target's not too far away, and you shoot many thousands of rounds through it, but if it's a hunting or target rifle why sacrifice important external and terminal ballistics because you think you might be saving some wear and tear?

FWIW, I just started using the "85% rule" to determine efficient case capacity (ECC) and to make a good educated guess at a powder and starting charge. It seems like a much more efficient way to come up with a load, and it saves money by not buying powder and using components that're unlikely to work well in the first place.

spitballer · Oct 24, 2014

MrBorland said:
I suppose I can see the appeal if your rifle's a range gun, your target's not too far away, and you shoot many thousands of rounds through it

That's pretty much it. My max effective range is no more than 500 yards with the 55 grain bullets. Lately I've been experimenting with the 40 grainers, and I don't expect to use them out past 300. Nevertheless, 55 grain groups that are tight at 100 yards are still tight at 300 yards. If guys are lobbing .223 rounds out to 1000 yards in F class competition, surely I can lob .223 rounds out to 300-400 and keep them tight. I wouln't expect to be any further than that from anything I'd ever hunt, anyway.

My concern with "wear and tear" centers around barrel friction and barrel life. I shoot a lot of the Nosler ballistic tip bullets with the thick copper bases, and they seem to obturate a lot more readily than the standard bases. I've found that under certain conditions, adding more pressure will actually decrease the velocity of these bullets, even though they land higher! When I discovered this I got serious about smaller charges. FWIW I would never have realized what was happening if I hadn't had the chrony.

In the case of the 40 grainers, it appears that the starting Hodgdon .223 load of 19.5 grains of 4198 is still too much for a low-node group when I'm seated into the rifling. Fortunately I have the chrony data which tells me that I want to reduce pressure, rather than raise it. This week I'm loading 5 each of 19.2, 19.3, and 19.4.

Yep. It was 19.3

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