223 rolled shoulder when chambering

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JoshIronshaft

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Not sure how else to describe this...

10522786_403758563123784_1282864353534802520_n.jpg


This happened today, in my 16" barrel AR. The same thing happened in my 11.5" suppressed AR. They look identical. Both times the action was frozen out of battery and I had to "mortar" the rifle to open it (grab charging handle, slam stock against knee, inertia opens action) so it took some force.

The one pictures is from the first incident that I had the state of mind to save. It's Wolf Gold 223 brass that I'm guessing is once fired since it's kind of new to the market but it might not be, I picked it up at the range after a carbine class this past fall.

I do not have the piece of brass from the incident today, because I got annoyed and chucked it in the woods at the range. I realized my mistake as soon as it left my hand lol. I might go look for it if it really matters.

I've loaded a couple thousand rounds with no issue, but recently I switched from full length sizing and depriming (Lee die) and trimming (Dillon rapid trim with full length outside sizing die) in two separate single stage presses to combining them on a tool head with nothing else on my Dillon 650 press. I have the full length resizing die backed off just a touch at the advice of a friend so as to not overwork the brass and the rapid trim die is set to finish.

I checked the die settings with a dillon case gauge.

I haven't touched my Lee bullet seating die or my Lee crimp die for about 3000 rounds.

I'm not sure if this is a brass issue or if I have something set up wrong with my dies.
 
This round looked normal before chambering??? I would not have thought that an AR bolt could exert that kind of force.

I have messed up a few untrimmed .44 cases that didn't like the crimp on a longer case.
 
It appeared normal to me before chambering. I visually inspect every round I make.

On another thread someone is accusing my seating die but has yet to make a thorough explanation.

This is interesting...
 
Seating dies have a crimp built in. I know of no other way to bulge the shoulder than over crimping. I have been wrong before?? How is the trim length, not to long? If the case mouth hits the end of the chamber, maybe??
 
Are you sure the bullet seating die isn't a bullet seat/crimp die? my lee die set came with the separate crimp and bullet seat/crimp die. I assumed it was a mistake and set it up like normal, it made cases buldge like that till I backed it off a half turn or so.
 
Too much crimp in the seating die adjustment.
Plus, you did not inspect them as closely as you think you did.

There is nothing going on inside the rifle that can do that to a round.

It buckled in the seating die due to a long case getting excess crimp.
And it tried to crimp below the bullet cannelure where there was no place for the crimp to go.

And you didn't catch it during final inspection.

There is no other possible explanation.

rc
 
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Too much crimp in the seating die adjustment.
Plus, you did not inspect them as closely as you think you did.

There is nothing going on inside the rifle that can do that to a round.

It buckled in the seating die due to a long case getting excess crimp.
And you didn't catch it during final inspection.

There is no other possible explanation.
Click to expand...

Please take this advice and use it. It is spot on and you will solve your problem if you follow it.

The solution is to set up your seating die correctly.

Follow the instruction for seating with No crimp.
 
Outstanding, thanks a ton. I will revisit my dies tomorrow. I can't believe this didn't show up until i had loaded thousands.
 
JI,

A cursory visual inspection of cases may miss small abnormalities. I find that if I run every round (pistol and rifle) through a case gauge it weeds out all the out-of-spec rounds, even those that look OK on visual inspection. A case gauge is a small expense and well worth the trouble.


best wishes- oldandslow
 
It looks like the round is bent and the shoulder is buckled only on one side. Whenever I collapsed a round with too much crimp, the buckling went all the way around and the rounds were not bent.

What do you mean by "full length outside sizing die"? I've never encountered the term "outside" in reference to a die.
 
How many times has that brass been reloaded? Did you use the Forward Assist a few times?
Click to expand...

Unsure, but it is Wolf Gold 223 I picked up at a carbine class back in the spring, and being new ammo to the market I assume once fired. I did not touch the forward assist.

A cursory visual inspection of cases may miss small abnormalities. I find that if I run every round (pistol and rifle) through a case gauge it weeds out all the out-of-spec rounds, even those that look OK on visual inspection. A case gauge is a small expense and well worth the trouble.
Click to expand...

I have a Dillon case gauge and may have to start dropping every round into it during my final inspection, I've always tried to use it as little as possible to keep it clean.

It looks like the round is bent and the shoulder is buckled only on one side. Whenever I collapsed a round with too much crimp, the buckling went all the way around and the rounds were not bent.

What do you mean by "full length outside sizing die"? I've never encountered the term "outside" in reference to a die.
Click to expand...

I'm going to go back through my 223 rounds I last loaded and check them all, see if I can find any with bad shoulder buckling and any that are bent like that. If none are bent I'm going to guess that part happened in the rifle.

By "outside" I mean there is no support and resizing of the inside of the case mouth. There is no depriming rod inside the sizing gauge on a Dillon repid trim because of the carbide cutter trimming OAL while its in the die.
 
Talking to a very experienced reloader who I work with, he thinks this is due to thicker than normal brass cases, since I haven't seen this issue till now with no die adjustments, and that I should consider using a small base die to mitigate eliminate this issue. He used to see this issue infrequently before he switched to small base dies. Thoughts?
 
Listen to what R C said! In addition here is what I would do:
Clean, resize and prep your cases as normal.
Measure each case for length.
Trim all cases to the length specified in the manual.
Load a dummy case using the crimp function as you have it set now.
Try the dummy round in your gun.
If you are seating and crimping in one motion, try using separate seating and crimping steps.

As far as your friend’s fix using a small base die, it is most likely that he got the setup right when he re-set the new die(s). This is just a guess and I am not sure if thicker brass would do what you show---but I doubt it.
 
Yep, over enthusiastic crimp. It doesn't take much. It doesn't show as excess crimp, it just pushes the shoulder back. :)
 
Original poster is using a Dillon trimmer, so I have to assume he is getting a fairly consistent trim length. I also use a Lee seating die and don't believe mine will seat and crimp in one stroke, but mine came with the "factory crimp die" in the set.

Since I don't think your rifle has enough force to do this to a round, it has to be a die setting like many have said above. Let us know what you find.
 
I'm seating in one die and using the Lee factory crimp in the next. I just think it's kind of odd I haven't touched these dies in about 3000 rounds and just now I'm seeing an issue. I'll reset them tonight.
 
My suggestion: Don't crimp at all.

First.... you don't need to. Normal neck tension is more than enough.
Second, it saves you an extra step from what you describe above. :D
 
Talking to a very experienced reloader who I work with, he thinks this is due to thicker than normal brass cases, since I haven't seen this issue till now with no die adjustments, and that I should consider using a small base die to mitigate eliminate this issue. He used to see this issue infrequently before he switched to small base dies. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The new brass is probably thicker in the neck, yeah. AND you changed your trimming setup. Either one can cause a problem - with your CRIMP. If brass is longer or thicker than usual, you may need to back off the crimp. Or just stop crimping. I don't know of anyone that has had problems in an AR which were solved with a crimp. At least with jacketed bullets. I only crimp my cast bullets.

Small base dies are not going to make the brass any thinner or your trimming any shorter, so don't waste your time with a small base die unless you have an additional problem that can be fixed by one. Fixing things that aren't broken is usually a waste of time and money, and it can introduce new problems.
 
I'm seating in one die and using the Lee factory crimp in the next. I just think it's kind of odd I haven't touched these dies in about 3000 rounds and just now I'm seeing an issue.
Click to expand...
The factory crimp die shouldn't be doing this unless adjusted way out of whack. Probably not though. If the seater die has a crimp feature, it could be the culprit. Since it just showed up, I wonder is the cases are getting long.
 
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