Problem with Dillon Trim Die

[PaulTX]

I am curious (among other issues) why the Dillon Trim Die must try to resize at all. You have to run it through at least a depriming step anyway. I've had a problem with the Die part of the unit and just sent this question to Dillon:

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I've been using the Dillon Trimmer in a single stage press for a while now. I resize/decap in a separate step and at another time relube and run the brass through the trimmer/trimmer die.

I've setup the resize/decap die (RCBS X-Die) in a progressive press along with the Dillon Trimmer in order to make the process more efficient. I've had two .223 cases stuck in the trimmer die now. I suppose lube has rubbed off the case before it went into the trimmer die? I don't know, but as you may guess, it is a pain to take apart the trimmer/die, use special tools to get the brass out, and then setup the trimmer/die and adjust to the correct trim length.

I would like to know if it is possible to order a .223 trim die where the area below the case shoulder is a few thousandths larger so the trim die will not resize at all? I just want the neck to square up and be trimmed.
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By my thinking the above should be a good solution. I would appreciate any ideas you may have about it.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[ReloaderFred]

I use the Dillon trimmer, but I trim them first and then size and decap in my regular sizing die. It works better for me that way and they come out consistant, contrary to popular belief.

You won't be able to buy a custom die from Dillon, since they don't make them. They use jobbers for a lot of their parts, including dies.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Jim M]

I use the Dillon size/trim dies for several calibers, and they work well for my case preparation system, which is itself unusual.

The Easy Way

If you don't want to wash your cases, just deprime first in a depriming die, then lube and size/trim in the Dillon die. I prefer to chamfer my cases after that trimmer, but some reloaders don't bother. Chamfering is necessary if you are using conventional case trimmers.

The Way I Do It

I prefer to clean my cases before I reload them. I have used several case cleaning systems over the years, and still have a Lyman Turbo tumbler, but my favorite cleaning system is an RCBS Sidewinder using water and liquid dish detergent with citric acid (a/k/a the "lemon scented" stuff). I just wash the cases in the Sidewinder, rinse with clear hot water, tumble for a few seconds in a media separator to remove most of the water, and put out on the roof of the dog house in the sun to dry.

The problem with that is that the water would stay in the primer pockets and flash hole unless the cases are deprimed before washing. So, I deprime first, before washing, with a deprime only tool, either a Lee or an RCBS. I have used both, and have no preference.

Since my cases have already been deprimed before washing, the depriming is not an issue when I go to size the cases, and the Dillon die works well. I did an unscientific study of the worst drudgery in reloading, and case trimming was the worst. Now that the Dillon die removes that chore, or at least combines it with the resizing so that it is not a problem, only the case mouth chamfering remains as a real drag in reloading rifle cases.

The Ideal (But Expensive) Way

I'm considering buying a Giraud case trimmer to cover that. If I do that, I will resize and decap with a conventional sizing die, then trim and chamfer in the Giraud trimmer, and finally wash the cases in the Sidewinder to remove the case sizing lube.

 

[PaulTX]

ReloaderFred,
Depending upon Dillon's answer, I may give your idea a try and see how the OAL's come out. Thanks!

Jim,
My procedure for all brass is to run it through the tumbler (walnut media) to do an initial/light cleaning before resizing/depriming. After they are sized and trimmed, I put them in the tumbler with some Flitz polish for additional cleaning and polishing.

I've been on a long trimmer journey. I started with Lee and went to Possum Hollow and then a Redding trimmer. These three are good for low volume (at least for me) and I still use them. When I got into higher volume (5.56mm) I bought the Dillon trimmer. I have run upwards of 2,000 cases through it without a single stuck case. Now that I'm ramping up production by using the progressive press for both steps I've had problems.

If I had it to do over I "might" get a Giraud.

But, I'm still pushing to get my current method resolved. It could be very productive for me.

Paul

 

[jmorris]

I run my cases through 3 different size dies but all are set the same. I first (once clean) I run them through a carbide size die. Then on to the trimmer, you only need enough pressure on the case to keep the brass from spinning in the shell plate. After that I run them through another size die then on to the expander. This gives me a burr free case inside and out as long as the carbide cutter remains sharp.

 

[Jim M]

Paul:

Using the RCBS X-Die, I don't trim at all, after the first setup and trim. The mandrel in that die keeps the case length within specs. That works well for cases that don't get a lot of stretch. I'm curious why you are sizing on the X-Die, and then trimming on the Dillon. I would think you could cut out one of those operations.

Cases stuck in the sizing die are a symptom of another problem. I reloaded for over 40 years without a case stuck in the sizing die until I tried Hornady One-Shot case lube. Then, I stuck a case (and I mean STUCK) in the first batch I tried to run. Hornady One-Shot is a wax-based lubricant, and I don't find it suitable for rifle case sizing. I went back to a conventional case lube for rifle cases. I still spray cleaned HANDGUN cases with light film of One-Shot before reloading in a progressive press (Dillon 1050) with a carbide sizing die. That makes the press run smoother, and I leave that lube on after loading. That seems to make the ammo run smoother through a semi-auto pistol. Since it is a wax based lube, it doesn't feel sticky. What case lube were you using when you got the stuck case?

I, too, have had a long trimmer journey. I started with a Forster trimmer, which I still use for small batches. Then, I went to a Lyman power trimmer, and finally the Dillon size/trim die for the three rifle calibers of which I load the most.

I am thinking about getting a Giraud trimmer. If I do that, I can always sell the Dillon trimmer and dies on SleazeBay to recover most of the cost of the Giraud.

jmorris has a great setup there. I use a single stage press for my sizing operations, simply because I don't cycle through two case preparation operations without a trip to the tumbler in between. He also uses a Super 1050, and my press is an original 1050 (not the Super) for .223, 7.62x39mm, and other short cases. I use an old Hornady Pro-Jector for .308 and .30-06.

Interesting thread.

 

[PaulTX]

Jim, I planned on running all the fired cases through trimmer and resize/deprime die on the progressive, that way I don't have to worry about some of the cases being once fired. What do you call "conventional case lube"? I've had good luck with the Hornady lube (until recently) but have started working with Franklin spray lube.

Dillon wasn't able to help me bore out the trim die a little - as ReloaderFred predicted. Tonight I put the trim die first and the resize/deprime die second as suggested by ReloaderFred and there was a significant improvement with no stuck cases.

My trim die seems real tight - tighter than the resize/deprime die! Even with a good lube the case doesn't go in as easy so I can't just provide enough pressure to keep the case from spinning as jmorris does. Thanks for the picture of your setup jmorris!

BTW, I'm using a Loadmaster. I know, you're all jealous.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Jim M]

Paul, the "conventional case lubes" I use are either C-H or RCBS. I use both. I have a couple of bottles that have been used for many years, so I just keep using them. There are many other brands, but I recommend the petroleum based lubes. I use a couple of RCBS lube pads. I just grab a handful of cases (usually about 10), dump them on the pad and roll them back and forth until they are lubed. Then, I pick up the pad and dump the cases into the bin, and grab the next handful of cases. Since I am dealing with cases in groups of about 10, this goes fairly fast. One obviously has to squirt a little bit more case lube on the pad every 30 or 40 cases, but that doesn't take much time. I don't necessarily recommend the lube pad -- That is just what I have on the bench, and it works well enough that I haven't been motivated to try anything else (except the Hornady One-Shot, which didn't work out for rifle cases).

Some reloaders use spray lubes (petroleum based), and that sounds a lot less messy, and easier to use. Many people have recommended the Dillon spray case lube, but the Franklin that you are using may be just as good. Let us know how you like it.

After my bin of cases is lubed, I size and trim all of them in the single stage press, using the "three finger shift" described in a lot of the old reloading manuals. That also goes fast, and I can size and trim 600 to 800 cases per hour working at a leisurely pace. Actually, though, this process is slower than the actual reloading on the progressive press, because that has a case feeder.

You say you trim and size on the progressive press? Does that mean that you then load the cases with the lube still on them? I try to avoid that, because I don't like the slick feel of the lubed cases after they are loaded, and I would be concerned about set back in the chamber. So, I size and trim on a single stage press, then just dump the sized cases in the RCBS Sidewinder and wash the lube off. I have also used a Lyman Turbo tumbler with walnut shell media for that, but media life isn't too good when it picks up the case lube.

Drying the cases after washing with water is no problem. I use a MidwayUSA media separator, and just tumble the dripping wet cases for maybe 10 seconds. That gets all of the water off, but the cases are still wet. I put them in cardboard flats that 12 cans of dog food come in, put them on the roof of the dog house in the sun, and they are completely dry shortly.

I use an RCBS A-4 ("Big Max") single stage reloading press for the sizing. It has so much leverage that I never have much trouble sizing cases. I also use that press for case forming wildcats, so it is a general purpose single stage press.

I do the case preparation in small lots, when possible. When I come back from the range, I dump the rifle brass, sorted by caliber, into bins. Whenever I have a bit of time, I run one bin of brass through the single stage press, using a decapping die. I use either RCBS or Lee, and I am satisfied with both. Once the cases are deprimed, I put them in the Sidewinder with hot water and 1 or 2 ccs of Ajax Lemon dish detergent, which has enough citric acid to clean the cases. I run them until they are clean, rinse, and dry as described above.

The next time I have some spare time, I lube whatever cases are around that are clean, size and trim, then dump them into the Sidewinder again, and repeat as above.

The idea is to keep as large a percentage of cases as possible cleaned, sized, trimmed, and ready to load.

The Dillon 1050 is a great press, and it is really fast. If it has a shortcoming (and I believe it does), that is the time required to change calibers and clean the press during the changeover. Since I have 9 caliber conversions for the press, I try to keep those changeovers to a minimum. So, I prepare cases in large batches. Then, when I set up the press for a given caliber, I usually load at least 2,000 rounds, and frequently 4,000 to 5,000 cartridges before I change the press again. That's about as many cases as I have for most calibers, so it works out just about right.

Jim.

 

[PaulTX]

I've got an RCBS pad and lube but it seems to slow to me compared to a spray lube.

After (hopefully) trimming and sizing on the Loadmaster I check the cases for a primer crimp (unless I know they are all RP) and remove as needed using a RCBS chamfer tool on a drill. Then a tumble for clean/polish. I do the final reloading steps on a single stage press. For powder dispensing I use either the PACT (digital dispenser and scale setup) or a Redding powder measure.

I've just done small batches of .223 brass for load development. When I select the best load I'm going to reload between 1,000 and 2,000 rounds. I do have 1,300 brass ready to reload that I processed twice (first resize, then trim) on the single stage. I have at least 2,000 more brass to process.

I like the Dillon trim motor and carbide blade. I don't like that I have to use a sizing die with the motor. I guess it is meant to be used with a just a decapping die?

Paul