Why? They haven't stopped using their 1911s or adopted the Glock. They've merely authorized their high speed guys to use it officially.
MARSOC approves the Glock 19
- Thread starter Zerodefect
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Why? They haven't stopped using their 1911s or adopted the Glock. They've merely authorized their high speed guys to use it officially.
Zerodefect
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Well, please clarify that you're speaking for yourself - and not for every Marine who's glad he got issued a Colt .45acp CQBP.
And, dude, I hope you're not intimating that MARSOC Marines are so physically feeble protectors of our freedom that they're not up to carrying a 40-ounce railed & light-mounted 1911 .... Hmmm?They aren't a girls j.v. softball team.
Being that the pistol is just a tertiary weapon, it's a darn good place to save some weight. I prefer the 1911 for CQB with a carbine or subgun and the CQB loadout, but if I had to carry a heavier pack and walk cross country, I'd rather have the Glock. No doubt about that.
They can still choose the Colt if they want to. But sorry, the MARSOC Colts didn't work out so well, sadly.
Nom de Forum
Member
So by your reasoning it should also be no more difficult for an American than for an Iraqi or Afghan to use a simple pistol like the Glock. Hmmm, why would anyone want to make pistol training more difficult and time consuming by using a 1911 or SIG that has no advantage in effectiveness over a Glock? Perhaps the USMC has realized the time and money saved by using Glocks can be used for things of more value to winning a war than pistols.
herrwalther
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Nom de Forum said:
Marines also have the lowest aptitude test thresholds of all the branches. Plenty of Marine recruiters were punished and even discharged for enlisting people with autism, mental disorders, and failing ASVAB scores. Yes Glocks are simple. And as for better? That is subjective at best.
Nom de Forum
Member
I am not so sure the Marines have the lowest ASVAB thresholds of all the branches. Even if they do, the differences between the Services are irrelevant in regard to ability to train service members. I never said the Glock was better, I said the 1911 and SIG have no advantage in effectiveness compared to the Glock. So if all these pistols are equally effective why would you buy anything other than the least expensive and easiest to train people to use. As far as enlistment fraud goes the Army has been guilty of the same in the past.
savanahsdad
Member
great LOW-Road post here ^^^^^
but for the record : ASVAB score , highest: Air Force.
next: NAVY
next: USMC
next: Army
next: Guard
both of my sons wanted to go in the Air Force , but got High Navy scores and then pick the USMC .
My brother got Air Force Score and pick the Army ,
Theohazard
Member
Not only is Taurus a Brazilian company, but all of the Springfield XD/XDM/XDS line is made overseas in Croatia by a company called HS Produkt. Also, Smith & Wesson was owned by a UK company from 1987 to 2001. And Sam Colt patented his first revolver design in the UK before he patented it here in the US.savanahsdad said:
The firearm industry -- like most other industries -- is internationally connected. Limiting your firearm choice only to guns made in the US by US-owned companies needlessly rules out many great options.
Theohazard
Member
I'd be interested to see references to those cases of recruiter fraud, and I'd also be interested to see evidence that it was worse in the Marine Corps than in the other branches.herrwalther said:
The Marines have less trouble recruiting during wartime because people tend to join the Marines specifically to fight, whereas people are more likely to join other services for things like job training or college benefits. Think about it; when was the last time you saw a Marine Corps ad mention any kind of benefit? I'm pretty sure you haven't, and that's because they don't want anybody to join for that reason.
The Marine Corps definitely has its share of idiots, and the Marine reputation for stupidity isn't always unearned. But considering the Marine Corps is often more selective than other services, I'd be surprised if they actually had the lowest average ASVAB score.
As for the Glock 19 issue, ASVAB scores don't have much to do with it. The Marine Corps as a whole emphasizes weapons handling FAR more than any other service, and increased training can easily make up for a slight difference in average test scores.
savanahsdad
Member
Last edited:
Theohazard
Member
Seriously? You're accusing me of typing in your mistake? Really? And you just accused someone else of taking the "low road"...savanahsdad said:
When I was responding to your post, I apparently didn't re-fresh my browser after 2:23AM, because I didn't see your edit until you pointed it out. I cut-and-pasted your quote into my post, just like I do for any other quotes, and when I did, it still had "Taurus" in it.
If you don't want people quoting any incorrect information from your posts, you might try to avoid posting incorrect information in the first place.
savanahsdad
Member
Theohazard
Member
It looks like I loaded the page before 2:23 AM, then I read all the posts on that page, then I copied your quote, then I went to the next page and read all those posts, then I pasted your quote and wrote my post, proofread it, and then submitted my post at 2:34 AM. That kind of delay isn't usual on an online forum. Maybe my post time would be faster if I wasn't typing on an Android touch screen, but it wouldn't be by much.savanahsdad said:
You accused me of faking your quote, but all I did was allow at least 11 minutes to pass between when I loaded the original page to when I posted my response to your post. So yeah, you got under my skin.savanahsdad said:
Like I said, before you accuse other members of taking the low road, you should avoid taking that route yourself...
savanahsdad
Member
well sorry for that , I forget about TalkPads, smartPhones, and Androids , also I have to admit I didn't do the math , I was thinking 2:43 as I typed and was thinking that was 20mins , , so 11min, yeah , I can see that ,
I'll go change post if that will help
I'll go change post if that will help
Theohazard
Member
No need; editing your post will just confuse this thread even more. Considering this exchange was exacerbated by an edited post, I don't think another edit will help anything.savanahsdad said:
No harm, no foul. Just remember that a post edit doesn't show until someone goes back and re-freshes their browser.
Have to agree with you.. I'm guessing a few people here didn't even bother reading the article... They didn't come out and say they're ditching the M9 for Glocks, just that they're another approved sidearm added to the list. Don't see what the big deal is.
The Army issued G19 pistols to the Military Police who were training Iraqi Police Forces to use the Glock pistols.
It would be considered rude to carry one pistol (The M9) and train the cops on an entirely different weapon system.
I imagine the same reasoning is why the Marines had adopted limited numbers of the Glock pistols for use.
herrwalther
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Nom de Forum said:
savanahsdad said:
Nothing low road about it. I worked in a joint (Air Force, Army, Navy, USMC) recruiting office for close to a year. Applicants who didn't score well on the ASVAB for Army or Air Force were sent to the Marine office on the other side of the wall. Many of the applicants we referred to the USMC are the same ones I drove to MEPS. But that is beside the point of this thread.
Theohazard said:
I am sure recruiter fraud happens in all the branches. The story about USMC recruiters being punished was fresh in my mind so I mentioned it.
Nom de Forum said:
I read this as saying Glocks are better than their more costly counterparts at HK, Sig etc. My mistake I own up to. Regardless the one thing Glock does well is they virtually give away firearms to law enforcement. They have tried the same thing with the military only to be largely denied, with small amounts like the one posted, picking up some. The G19 makes sense. Can shoot the same as the M9 so that makes sense logistically. As I have said Glocks are simple. Most of my counterparts in the Afghan Police and Border patrol carried some version of the Tokarev, a weapon I had only seen pictures up to that point. My job training them would have been much simpler if we had a case of Glocks to give them at the end of training.
Thus is what happens when you don't improve designs.
A grip safety that serves no function except to cause problems if you shoot it properly.
Plunger tube is still a separate part to come loose, grip bushings come loose, ejector that is not "field" replaceable....etc, etc. Just keep making them the way "John Browning" intended. I think he would have laughed at the current 1911 manufacturers regarding their inability to make improvements/changes...as he would have done.
"Staying the course" worked for General Motors pretty well......
Regardless, it appears the 9mm is the way they are going. Lighter and more bullets. Same way the rifle calibers have gone many years ago.
A grip safety that serves no function except to cause problems if you shoot it properly.
Plunger tube is still a separate part to come loose, grip bushings come loose, ejector that is not "field" replaceable....etc, etc. Just keep making them the way "John Browning" intended. I think he would have laughed at the current 1911 manufacturers regarding their inability to make improvements/changes...as he would have done.
"Staying the course" worked for General Motors pretty well......
Regardless, it appears the 9mm is the way they are going. Lighter and more bullets. Same way the rifle calibers have gone many years ago.
Nom de Forum
Member
Whatever new pistol and caliber is chosen to replace the Beretta 9mm I think operating characteristics, construction material, and country of origin will have little to do with selection. I think many designs will have sufficient ergonomics and reliability and that sufficiency and not the highest scores in these two areas will be acceptable. I believe the decision will be heavily weighted by initial cost, maintenance cost, replacement cost, domestic manufacturing agreement, and of course political intrigue. Things are much different now than in the 1980’s and the need for DA/SA, conventional mechanical safeties, and Italian cooperation have much less hold on the imaginations of decision makers. When a choice is made it will have to be as or very nearly as cheap as a Glock 9mm. Just the size of a .45 caliber pistol will make it somewhat more costly than a smaller caliber pistol; so that alone is a factor against it if the decision makers do not believe, and they probably will not, it has sufficiently greater effectiveness than a smaller caliber.
savanahsdad
Member
I took that as Low-road because the way you wrote the first sentence, you all but called the Marines the village idiots of the armed services ,
as of 2012 when my sons were looking to get in the list went- AirForce, NAVY, USMC, Army, Guard ,
Just called my brother, to ask if it has always been that way , he is a 22 year Army vet. retired , and was a Drill Instructor for 4 of his 22years, he said the ASVAB numbers do change do to manning , the smaller branches like the AirForce and the USMC will raise there ASVAB scores do to manning ,(cut backs , peace time) after 911 he said just about anyone could get in the Army or the Corps,
oh and your post made it sound like Glocks are for Dummy's , those guys get mops and weed-eaters ,
'
herrwalther
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savanahsdad said:
I did not call Marines idiots. I said they have the lowest test score thresholds. I have met many smart Marines. I have also met some Marines who would be the smartest potato in a box. It doesn't change the fact that they accept lower ASVAB scores. Many times in the office I worked in, if a prospect wanted to do X job in the Army but didn't have the cutting score, and didn't have a branch preference, we would help them get into the same or similar job in the Marine Corps.
savanahsdad said:
In the same way that an AK is for dummies. Which it isn't. I have taught soldiers from a half dozen nations how to shoot one or both the AK and AR. In almost every case it was easier to teach the AK compared to the AR, because it is simpler to maintain. Simpler does not mean for idiots or dummies. As I said if I had to take a position teaching firearms again to a foreigner I would teach them on a Glock and let them keep that firearm when they finished.
I don't think you get it... Spec ops guys use a variety of weapons, they can because they're super high speed like that.
The 1911 is still very much used by MARSOC, it has not been replaced. The Marine message that authorized the G19, also lists the M45A1 and M9/M9A1 as authorized sidearms.
And those are just the officially approved ones, I wouldn't be surprised if they use other designs as they see fit out in the field.
CoalTrain49
Member
Has the Marine Corps turned into a prep school for girls?
Do they get to vote now on which weapons they use?
If they can't master one type of pistol do they get a second or third choice?
I'll take a USP in 9mm sir. I don't want to pack that big heavy slow ammo.
Thank you sir. I'll need a 3 day pass also.
Do they get to vote now on which weapons they use?
If they can't master one type of pistol do they get a second or third choice?
I'll take a USP in 9mm sir. I don't want to pack that big heavy slow ammo.
Thank you sir. I'll need a 3 day pass also.
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