"Saddle ring carbine" terminology

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AlexanderA

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We've all heard this term. A "saddle ring carbine" (SRC) is a carbine (antique or relatively modern) with a large ring on the left side.

But this is based on a historical fallacy. The rings on carbines had absolutely nothing to do with saddles. The old cavalry troopers used the rings to attach their carbines to sliding hooks on diagonal belts (carbine slings) on the troopers' bodies. There was no attachment to either the horse or the saddle. At best, the carbine barrel was inserted in a boot on the saddle, just to keep it from flopping around. But in any case the ring wasn't used for this purpose.

When did this erroneous terminology get started, and isn't it time we finally put it to rest?
 
By all the bold text you are using I have to ask, why does this bother you so much?? It is not nearly as bad as calling an Armalite Rifle or AR the feared name "assault rifle".
 
When hunting I carry my own saddle ring Winchester on a sliding hook and diagonal sling, and found it to be very comfortable - more so than the typical sling setup and easier to bring up into play. I just keep my right hand on the rifle to keep it from flopping around. Easy for me to believe that cavalry troopers had used something similar....
 
Can't argue with you since I don't know the history myself, but it seems that if its primary purpose was for use by those on horse back then it would not necessarily be erroneous to call it a saddle ring. Sounds a lot better than sling ring or cavalry ring to me.
 
By all the bold text you are using I have to ask, why does this bother you so much?? It is not nearly as bad as calling an Armalite Rifle or AR the feared name "assault rifle".
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Bold text is simply a method of highlighting for emphasis.
It's not an emotional barometer
 
Never say never.

If you didn't have a calvary sling with a hook, or a saddle boot?

quartermaster_cavalry_sergt_spencer_carbine_saber.jpg


You always had saddle rings and saddle straps to hang it on!
Circa 1900 saddle ring in use.

usingcarbineswivel.jpg

In all, it's nothing to get all worked up about.
It's the original single-point tactical sling mount.

They just called it a saddle ring, because it was.

rc
 
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When did this erroneous terminology get started, and isn't it time we finally put it to rest?
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I'm not sure where it started, but Winchester marketed their rifles and carbines as such. Whatever the original intended use, they're commonly known as saddle ring carbines.
 
Bold text is simply a method of highlighting for emphasis.
It's not an emotional barometer
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I see. So I suppose the fact he calls it "erroneous" shows his love for the name?? Yea that make sense......:scrutiny:
 
The original poster is correct. They were not used to fasten the gun directly to the saddle, or as commonly believe, hung off the horn with a leather cord. Great way to lose a gun.

I'm not sure where it started, but Winchester marketed their rifles and carbines as such. Whatever the original intended use, they're commonly known as saddle ring carbines.
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Actually, Winchester didnt market their guns with rings as saddle rings. That was a term that came about later from collectors, and has become "common usage", even if incorrect in actual original use and intent. The term Winchester used back in the day was "sling ring" exactly as the cavalry used them and termed them from pre-civil war days on.

Some ask why they continued to put sling rings on the carbines. I think it was simply holdover from their trying to market their guns to the military, which was never all that succesful. They continued to put a screw slot in the end cap of the magazine for 30 or 40 years after they were not threaded into the tube. They stopped that in the early 73 models, and went to the cross screw, but still slotted the end cap for decades.

Theres more important things to get worked up about, but since the topic came up,...

I used to be of the common thought of the use of a saddle ring, but over time I realized I'd never seen a period refrence or true period artwork showing anyone carrying a carbine with a loop of leather over the saddle horn. Most carried them in a scabbard. In the earlier days, rifles were carried in what become known as a California Loop, which was an oval of leather with slots cut, that allowed the rfile to be carried sideways across the saddle, basically across the riders lap, with the slots hooked over the horn to help keep the gun in place. They seem to have fallen from favor quickly when scabbards became popular.

The only person I know that carried with a loop over the horn lost his carbine and had a couple miles of looking before finding it. He didnt try it again.

The picture of the Mountie with the '76 carbine is interesting, its the first I've seen of its kind, I'm interested to know what their actual prescribed carry method or equipment was.
 
I'm no equestrian, I actually despise the critters due to my experience with them, but I would be highly inclined to believe that the nomenclature stemmed from the appearance (and possibly original source) of the "saddle ring" was quite literally a saddle ring. Iron rings have been used for many years to attach things securely, much like how a lot of stirrups or saddle parts attach to the main body of the saddle. Also it could have been used to cinch up the belts as a slip-fit similar to the fabric belts that use similar setups to hold people's pants up. I'm betting that they built this attachment setup, and somebody once said something along the line of "you hook this here piece to that yonder saddle ring thing on the gun and then hang this gun off your side so you don't lose it"
 
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Actually, Winchester didnt market their guns with rings as saddle rings.
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Maybe we should also debate the meaning of marketing...
 
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Wisco said:
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Maybe we should also debate the meaning of marketing...
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Because Winchester marketing circa 2015 is 100% synonymous with Winchester (an entirely different company) circa 1890's.

You're comparing a modern company with the same name to the original company that first brought the gun to market. It's clear to me that Malamute is saying Winchester (19th Century) did not market the gun as a saddle ring carbine, but rather a sling ring.

Actually, Winchester didnt market their guns with rings as saddle rings. That was a term that came about later from collectors, and has become "common usage", even if incorrect in actual original use and intent. The term Winchester used back in the day was "sling ring" exactly as the cavalry used them and termed them from pre-civil war days on.
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What Winchester of the 21st century does has almost zero correlation to what Winchester of the 19th century did.
 
Saddle rings with stud screw or with slide bar were common on the cavalry carbines in the era of the US Civil War and continued in use until cavalry were phased out in the early 20th Century (1900s). They were used with the carbine sling for the same reason cavalry pistols were used with lanyards: weapon retention. Kinda hard to pick up a dropt gun while riding.

Carbines were often used with the "saddle holster" also called carbine sheath, carbine socket or carbine boot. A hook or thong on the saddle or saddle holster could be used to retain the carbine by the ring, but I haven't seen historical mention of that.

As I scanned the rifle and carbine listings for the Sears, Roebuck & Co. Catalog 1897, I failed to find mention of saddle rings on the Marlin or Winchester lever action rifles or carbines marketed for the civilian user. I did find 1897 Sears, Roebuck & Co. ads for "Rifle or Carbine Sheath or "Saddle Holster"": "These sheaths are not full length covers, but are for carrying rifle on saddle, leaving stock on rifles exposed to be easily grasped."

I guess if I looped a leather thong through a saddle ring on my Marlin or Rossi, all the better to extract it from a scabbard on an ATV, that would be incorrect usage, based on a mistaken impression I got from the saddle ring and leather thong on my Daisy Red Ryder BB Cowboy Carbine. That thong often got in the way of closing the lever on the Red Ryder, which should have been a clue that it was not a practical accessory. This is kinda like modern medieval fantasy showing warriors carrying their swords in scabbards across the back. Some Asian warriors whose primary weapon was a bow or other weapon would carry a sword in a back scabbard as a backup. Of all the medieval European tribes, the "Cauldron People" or Parisii of Yorkshire used the back scabbard. Otherwise, sword in a back scabbard was not used in medieval Europe, India, or Middle East nor in most of Asia. A lot of fantasy is written without historical research on actual usage.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
A lot of fantasy is written without historical research on actual usage.
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Like viking helmets with horns sticking out the sides, started in Hollywood.

I guess if you wanted to use the ring as a single point mount it might come in handy, but I see it as more of a vehicle for spooking game while hunting.
 
Looking at McPheeter's site and historical cavalry carbines it becomes crystal clear that the soldier wore the sling, the rifles were intended to be attached to the sling by the ring and that Winchester simply made a carbine intended for this purpose and then brought them out again in the 60's or so calling them saddle rings (perhaps because of the marketing opportunity the TV Westerns presented or because the ring historically was used to secure the carbines to frontiersman's horses after the slings broke, were lost, or found to be uncomfortable).

Note the cavalry rings on earlier rifles.
rs_0108_11a2.jpg

FLA-1801-Product.jpg
b79bc338166044ee089174a85e6cb66a.jpg
1024px-Karbin_m-1870_Sverige_%28Husqvarna_-_Arm%C3%A9museum%29.jpg

Now note the sling swivel attachment for the sling used by the cavalryman (not his horse).
http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/05_accoutrements/05_item_003.htm
0633carbslng55_2.JPG

CIVIL WAR MODEL 1855 CARBINE SLING – MAKER MARKED SNAP SWIVEL w/ INSPECTOR’S STAMP – EXCELLENT SPECIMEN: This Civil War/Early Indian War Cavalry Carbine Sling is full length, in the original configuration, and is complete with a maker marked snap swivel.

Many of these carbine slings, once in the surplus market and in the hands of companies such as Bannerman’s, fell victim to the demand for metal during both World Wars and the brass buckles and tips were removed. As little care was taken in these salvage efforts, more often than not, the sling leather was severely shortened.

This Civil War Carbine Sling escaped those salvage efforts, with the sling retaining its full length of 52 ½ inches. The leather surface is overall smooth and bright with only some minor flexing in isolated points, most apparent immediately above the brass tip where it is expected from feeding the sling tip through the buckle, and a couple of worming tracks. The sling is supple and the leather has not hardened, making it a very nice piece to display. The original brass tip and buckle have a nice, even aged patina and are full form. The snap swivel is fully functional and has a smooth, bright finish with no pitting – one of the nicest ones I’ve seen in some time. The roller frame is stamped “[E. G]AYLORD, [CHI]COPEE, MASS.”, the maker, and “T. SHEPARD”, the inspector, and finally “US”. The first characters in both lines of the maker’s name stamp did not strike due to the curve of the roller frame – something that is common to these stamps.

Given the continued use of these Civil War Carbine Slings through the war, then onto the frontier where they were used well into the late Indian Wars, and the loss to the surplus efforts as described above, full length specimens with the original buckles and tips have become very difficult to locate on the market, and this is a particularly nice example to display with your cavalry accoutrement and carbine grouping. (0633) $2350
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http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/05_accoutrements/05_item_001.htm
70e_2.jpg
MODEL 1870 DYER “E” POUCH – VERY RARE EARLY INDIAN WARS TRIAL SET COMPLETE WITH PROPER SLING AND CARBINE SNAP SWIVEL – EXCELLENT SET: Tested during the 1870 Equipment Trials, this Model 1870 Dyer “E” Pouch, complete with the proper sling, and unique carbine snap swivel, is the easily the rarest and most sought after of the early Indian War accoutrements, eluding many of the most ardent collectors. One of the several patterns issued during the famous 1870 equipment trials, there were only 100 specimens of this pouch manufactured at the Watervliet Arsenal. As these pouches were issued to the troops in the field for trial, and were issued to several different units during the course of the trials and evaluation, it is not surprising that few of these pouches - perhaps no more than a total of twenty specimens - survived the trials to be found in collections today.

The forbearer of the series of Dyer pouches that would serve the army through the 1880’s, this pouch was designed by Chief of Ordnance Alexander Dyer. The “E” designation was derived from the letters assigned by the Equipment Board to identify each sample of the various patterns of cartridge boxes and pouches submitted for testing. Intended to serve several requirements of the mounted soldier, the main compartment of the pouch was large enough to carry 60 rounds of .50-70 or 70 rounds of Spencer ammunition. The small pouch on the front of the main compartment was intended to carry the soldier’s pistol ammunition, as well as the maintenance tool for the weapons. Finally, the pouch was mounted on a leather sling fitted with a carbine snap swivel to secure the soldier’s carbine as the earlier and wider carbine slings had been employed. The pouch was also fitted with two belt loops that would allow the pouch to be worn on the soldier’s waist belt rather than the sling.

This set has survived in very good condition in spite of definitive evidence that this particular pouch experienced service in the hands of the soldiers. The pouch is complete with all the components, to include the two side “ears” on the main flap. The gusset is intact and still supple. Both the outer and inner flaps are complete with little if any wear evident around the holes that closed over the finial. The outer flap is legibly stamped “US WATERVLIET ARSENAL”. The leather surfaces are overall very good, with some minor crazing on the outer flap. The surfaces of the inner flap and body are smooth and bright with no crazing. Both belt loops and both brass sling loops on the reverse are present and show no signs of weakness or wear. The sheepskin lining is still present on the interior of the back panel and while worn, some of the white wool is still present. There is a well executed modification to the integral closing tab on the outer flap, likely the result of the bulk of a full load of ammunition making it difficult to keep the pouch closed. The ingenious remedy is attached with well executed stitching and is a simple, yet effective solution. An extra billet was sewn to the tip of the flap below the finial hole with a short second layer of leather to form a catch or stop. A second lateral strap is sewn to the face of the pouch body just above the gusset that forms a loop. To close the flap, the flap billet is fed through the lateral strap, and the leather stop on the billet prevents the billet from pulling through the loop unless manipulated by the soldier. The quality of the stitching indicates that this modification was likely executed by an experience leather worker at one of the arsenals or depots, rather than by a private soldier.

The sling is full form, measuring 1 5/8” wide, 74 ½” long and is complete with both leather keepers, the two brass adjusting hooks and the brass frame adjusting buckle. The leather surface of the sling is clear with no crazing or flaking and only minimal flexing in the expected areas where the sling folds through the brass loops. The carbine snap swivel is unique to this set, as the interior dimension of the swivel and roller assembly is 1.75” wide versus the 2.5” of the Civil War Sling Swivel and the 1.5” of the Model 1885 Swivel. These Model 1870 snap swivels are typically marked only with an assembly number “9” or “G” inside the snap and that character is present on this specimen. The snap swivel is in very good condition with much of the original blue finish present.

The rarity of this Dyer “E” Pouch and Sling set cannot be overstated and they are the type of collectable that normally passes quietly from one collection to another, never being offered on the open market. This set is the preeminent Indian War accoutrement, and will be the perfect addition to display with one of the 1870 Trial carbines. $7750
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USCavalryQMS1864.jpg

Like RC said, plenty that folks don't know that they can find out by asking.
 
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Not at all "erroneous terminology"...

While the rings on GI carbines related more to a cross saddle or cross pommel carry they did have a saddle/scabbard use. The later "saddle rings" as relates to say, Winchesters is in fact specifically an attachment point for a saddle/ scabbard "dummy cord".

The SRC scabbard too had a tab for securing the rifle/carbine by the ring with the scabbard also secured to the saddle.

Every horse scabbard I own with the exception of the Garand/M1 Carbine versions has an independent leather bit for securing the rifle/carbine while mounted.

Seems a funny thing to get tense about after 130 or so years of tradition.

I view it as an evolved bit of terminology.
 
I think the images and the historical notes about the military carbine slings make it clear the original purpose for the carbine ring was as shown. They slung from the sling by the ring. So the original purpose wasn't as a "saddle ring" and no one's provided any documentation of the use of the term before the '60s yet.

Subsequent use in the western frontier may have used the rings on the Spencer and Winchester carbines to secure the rifle to the saddle, but there's little reason to think that we know if the term "saddle ring" came about at that time. Perhaps, but no one's provided any documentation to support it.

What we actually know is that it has been called a saddle ring since the 1960s and that is coincidental with movie and TV westerns and Winchester's use of the term.

Whether the term itself is "correct" as to original use isn't a significant issue to worry about, but it is interesting what the actual origins of the rings on carbines were for and the accoutrements that were associated with the ring. Something I'd wager most of us didn't know!
 
hso said:
I think the images and the historical notes about the military carbine slings make it clear the original purpose for the carbine ring was as shown. They slung from the sling by the ring. So the original purpose wasn't as a "saddle ring" and no one's provided any documentation of the use of the term before the '60s yet.

Subsequent use in the western frontier may have used the rings on the Spencer and Winchester carbines to secure the rifle to the saddle, but there's little reason to think that we know if the term "saddle ring" came about at that time. Perhaps, but no one's provided any documentation to support it.

What we actually know is that it has been called a saddle ring since the 1960s and that is coincidental with movie and TV westerns and Winchester's use of the term.

Whether the term itself is "correct" as to original use isn't a significant issue to worry about, but it is interesting what the actual origins of the rings on carbines were for and the accoutrements that were associated with the ring. Something I'd wager most of us didn't know!
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That still discounts the saddle scabbard as a validation for the unofficial ring nomenclature.
 
That still discounts the saddle scabbard as a validation for the unofficial ring nomenclature.
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Yes, it does. Your post is the first I've seen of that type of use. Do you have any citations to refer us to?
 
I have no idea how they got the name but I have several. When I run across one in good shape and I can afford it, it's mine.
 
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