"Saddle ring carbine" terminology

[Malamute]

Its interesting how they seem to catch peoples imagination, or whatever. I too really like the early type carbines, just not the ring so much.

The experience I have with them is that I removed the one on my 1886 Browning carbine shortly after I got it. The couple older 94's that originally had them wont get them replaced. Quite a lot of older guns I've seen have had the rings removed, either by cutting the ring off, cutting the stud off, or just unscrewing them (which apparently many folks didnt know could be done)

 

[WestKentucky]

http://militarywanted.com/?cat=3

Scroll through this page and you will see lots of rings very similar to the ring on the side of the various "saddle ring" guns, which again would very much make sense. I'm betting that this was a nickname given to the rifle that has just kinda stuck...kinda like "greasegun"

 

[Snyper]

I see. So I suppose the fact he calls it "erroneous" shows his love for the name?? Yea that make sense......

Calling it erroneous is merely a statement of fact based on the sources cited.

I don't know why you think there's an "emotional" element at all

 

[AR-15Nutt]

very interesting discussion, i have learned much from both sides of the discussion, good work guys, keep it going.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I see. So I suppose the fact he calls it "erroneous" shows his love for the name?? Yea that make sense......

Perfectly logical. If I way two plus two does not equal five it means I am pissed off about it!!!

Mike

 

[Armybrat]

Don't really care. Y'all can call them TV trays if you like.

Will always call my '66 a Saddle Ring Carbine:

 

[MJD]

I saw one in the Army museum in Carlisle, PA (great museum if you're passing through on the turnpike). My first thought was that, as RC mentioned, single point slings have been around a lot longer than the rise and fall of their popularity in the early stages of Iraq/Afghanistan.

I imagine that if not for the potential interference of the diagonal belt while levering another round, it wouldn't be a bad deal for carrying my Winchester through the woods at the ready. As light as the 1894 is, it's not a necessity.

 

[Onmilo]

It was a common practice to tie a loop of leather or cord to the saddle ring of lever action rifles and hang them from the saddle pommel.
It was quicker to get to the weapon than a saddle scabbard and if the horse rolled you off you could get the weapon off the saddle instead of having the horse pulverize it thrashing around.

 

[JColdIron]

The experience I have with them is that I removed the one on my 1886 Browning carbine shortly after I got it. The couple older 94's that originally had them wont get them replaced. Quite a lot of older guns I've seen have had the rings removed, either by cutting the ring off, cutting the stud off, or just unscrewing them (which apparently many folks didnt know could be done)

My grandfathers Krag Carbine had the bar and ring removed and replaced with a popsicle stick- so that he could have a quiet deer rifle back in the 30's . It was not cheap to find a replacement. Apparently lots of people did the same.

I just picked up a '95 Spanish Mauser Carbine that the ring mount was removed and a plate with the previous owners initials put in it's place. Still looking for a replacement bar and ring for it!

 

[Sunray]

Some "old cavalry troopers used the rings to", not all and not everywhere. Cavalryman's primary weapon was his sabre anyway.
Saddle ring was also used by civilians to hang a long gun off the saddle horn. If there was one. Horns on saddles are a cow boy thing. Civilised people, like cavalrymen, don't have horny saddles. snicker.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Cavalryman's primary weapon was his sabre anyway.

Only in Hollywood and maybe European light cavalry (until 1872, the horrendous losses to cavalry in such battles as Battle of Mars-La-Tour, taught them not to try charging home with just "cold steel").

The Unpleasantness between the States circa 1860, almost all cavalry actions were dismounted actions. The standard deployment was four to the front, disposed as skirmishers or in a defensive position, and one to the rear, to hold the horses. In the Indian Wars, the saber was always left in the barracks during patrols and expeditions.

 

[AlexanderA]

Cavalryman's primary weapon was his sabre anyway.

In America, the cavalry traditionally were Dragoons (soldiers who rode to battle and then dismounted to fight on foot). That's why it was so important to keep their long arms on the person instead of on the horse.

The first two U.S. cavalry regiments were officially designated Dragoons, and the third one, organized during the Mexican War, were Mounted Rifles. The total number of Regular cavalry regiments was increased to six during the Civil War, and they were all redesignated as "Cavalry," but the tactics remained the same.

 

[cowpoke]

The mountie or what ever he is would not be hanging his rifle,carbine off the saddle like that, it was strictly for the photograph.If he moved that horse any faster than a walk that rifle would be flopping, flying all over the place. And lose his rifle.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

The mountie or what ever he is would not be hanging his rifle,carbine off the saddle like that, it was strictly for the photograph.If he moved that horse any faster than a walk that rifle would be flopping, flying all over the place. And lose his rifle.

I think this gent has ridden a pony or two and I agree.
I ride a lot and Even at a slow trot anything not tied down flops around. A rifle could be dangerous to the rider and the horse if it is left to flop around. Especially at a canter or jumping a log.

I have seen many an "old timer" put his rifle in the scabbard and use the ring as an extra measure to keep it from moving around. usually, hooking a thong on the horn of the saddle (in addition to the scabbard)
The kinda folks that thought they might need a rifle while on horseback typically carried them in their hand across the saddle bow (my great grandfather did this a time or two). Or, if they had the sling (military types) they did that. But even that was slid into a boot on the saddle.

One thing I do know about old time cowboys is that they were (most of them) poor and damned resourceful. If I heard or saw a photo of an old time cowboy with the rifle looped over the horn by the "saddle ring", I don't think it would surprise me. Many cowpokes back in the day had very little money and if they didn't need to buy a scabbard, they probably didn't.

I actually thought that the "Saddle Ring" came about because the rifles were referred to as "Saddle carbines". and i think that "saddle carbine ring" was just too much to say so it was shortened to "Saddle ring".

Also, I happen to like my "saddle rings" (there, I said it!) but don't often carry a rifle while riding. Pistol, yes. Rifle, not so much.

Just my $.02

 

[lysanderxiii]

That's why it was so important to keep their long arms on the person instead of on the horse.

Even European Light cavalry slung their carbines on a shoulder belt, The shoulder belt, with the cartridge box has become synonymous with cavalry. Oddly enough, the pistols (a pair) were mounted on the saddle pommel.

 

[Tommygunn]

Some "old cavalry troopers used the rings to", not all and not everywhere. Cavalryman's primary weapon was his sabre anyway.
Saddle ring was also used by civilians to hang a long gun off the saddle horn. If there was one. Horns on saddles are a cow boy thing. Civilised people, like cavalrymen, don't have horny saddles. snicker.

Only in Hollywood and maybe European light cavalry (until 1872, the horrendous losses to cavalry in such battles as Battle of Mars-La-Tour, taught them not to try charging home with just "cold steel").

Yup, by the time of the American Civil War the sabre was largely an obsolete weapon.
Reminds me of a story about Gorge A. Custer; during his first cavalry charge as commander, he was still rather enamored of the sabre, as a sort of "romantic" weapon. As he led his cavalry charge toward the rebel forces he drew his sabre, which by custom his men would follow since the cavalry men were expected to choose the same weapon as their leader.
But there was, apparently, a practical side to Custer and he realized the revolver was a more modern and effective weapn, so he'd sheathe the sabre and draw his revolver.
Well, he was young (still) and maybe a tad impulsive; he went back and forth a few times between the sabre and his revolver, thus causing his entire cavalry command to follow.
It must have been an interesting sight amongst the Rebel forces.
Anyway, during Custer's Indian War service the sabre was largely symbolic; on the Little Bighorn expedition the sabres were cased and left behind as being unnecessary, aside from the fact they clanked to much when charging ...

 

[Malamute]

It was a common practice to tie a loop of leather or cord to the saddle ring of lever action rifles and hang them from the saddle pommel.

Do you have some historic references or citations for this?

 

[Thermactor]

When I think of a saddle ring carbine, I think back to Lee Van Cleef in "For a Few Dollars More" as he unfurls his gun-bearing parchment on the horse.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

1957 Interview of a cowboy in the 1880's

Hi All,

not that this ends the debate about the saddle carbines but I did find the insight interesting. Folks that enjoy cowboy research might find it enjoyable.
http://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/thro1/rickey.pdf

The Rifles and Carbines section starts on page 46 of the pdf. It only briefly mentions the way in which they were carried on the saddle.

it describes in a scabbard, usually on the left side to avoid getting in the way of the rope. The article says that the carrying of a rifle was not all that common.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Corpral_Agarn: great find! Beats having to guess from old catalogs, dime novels and "Western" movies. From 1957 interviews with cowboys who worked in the 1880s.

Don Hickey, Jr., Park Historian, "Cowboy Dress, Arms, Tools and Equipments, as used in the Little Missori Range Country and the Medora Area, in the 1880's", Theodore Roosevelt National Military Park, 25 Jun 1957.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Corpral_Agarn: great find! Beats having to guess from old catalogs, dime novels and "Western" movies. From 1957 interviews with cowboys who worked in the 1880s.

Don Hickey, Jr., Park Historian, "Cowboy Dress, Arms, Tools and Equipments, as used in the Little Missori Range Country and the Medora Area, in the 1880's", Theodore Roosevelt National Military Park, 25 Jun 1957.

Thanks! I found it pretty informative.

I hate to get too far off topic but...

It mentions a saddle rigging that I have been using for years and always called it a "Mountain Rig" but the document refers to it as a "Montana Rig." Learn something new everyday!

 

[Speedo66]

Great read, thanks for posting it. Lots of interesting information..

 

[notaglockfanboy]

Calling it erroneous is merely a statement of fact based on the sources cited.

I don't know why you think there's an "emotional" element at all

And I am not sure why you care what I think. When someone post a comment in bold print and states he thinks the name is "erroneous" it shows they don't agree with or particularly fancy said name. If he liked the name, I doubt he would even bring the issue up. Sorry you don't understand that.

 

[wojownik]

Good topic - always enjoy some good discussion and research on the 19th c.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

And I am not sure why you care what I think. When someone post a comment in bold print and states he thinks the name is "erroneous" it shows they don't agree with or particularly fancy said name. If he liked the name, I doubt he would even bring the issue up. Sorry you don't understand that.

I still disagree that using a few bold print words for emphasis indicates someone in emotional about a point but I would agree that choosing a forum name based on something someone does not like (rather than something someone likes) speaks volumes.

Mike