At what point do you stop trusting a good gun?

So pretty much you're saying that you've had about 1 major failure every 10,000 rounds? Seeing as how the average defensive shooting is ~3 shots fired, that gives you a 1 in 3,333 chance that you'd have a similar failure in a defensive situation. Add that to John Lott's findings that 95% of confrontations are settled without firing a shot, that bumps your chances to 1 in 66,660 of having a major malfunction in a defensive encounter. I'd take those odds.

Also, props on the meticulous records. Are you an engineer, or an accountant?

Here is an article addressing similar instances.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/9093

There really is no telling when parts will actually break.

I try to keep with factory maintenance schedule with major parts, but there are cases wher parts failed before they were expected to.

Short of X-ray scanning parts, I think most people will just have to set a certain point of their own to replace parts or whole guns.

I can say, "I wil repace my gun after X rounds..." But, it will be arbitrary.

Parts will break with age and use.
Parts that have been replaced because of breaking with age or use will rarely break again until they are older and more used.

They can restore a car (well, not a 'modern car') to like new condition or better, what makes it any harder to do the same with a Much simpler implement like a firearm?

I honestly think you are probably fine if you continue to shoot the gun and replace parts as they break, since the chances that anything bad would happen during a confrontation are quite small. So I guess I agree with shotgunjoel.

However, I tend to be a bit of an obsessive person, and am pretty intolerant of malfunctions on a carry gun. I guess if it were me, I'd probably replace it, as the very smallest seed of doubt in my mind will grow, and I wouldn't feel better until I had a new carry gun.

Of course the new one could be crap and the old one may go another 30,000 rounds with no problems at all. I think if you are really concerned, you'd sleep better with a replacement gun. There's plenty of winners out there to choose from.

IMHO, you should consider doing some PM on the pistol. As in the same reason a friend of mine replaced the springs on the mags of his carry gun. Every year? Required? Probably not, but gives him a piece of mind. Kinda like replacing belts and spark plugs and even oil in a car: don't do it when they fail but before.

I would expect some guns have a record of which parts start to fail when. In fact, I would expect something like a 1911 (to pick a model off my ass) to have that well documented. So, if you know that, say, the extractor tends to break around 5K rounds, put at new one at 4K. I also would expect that some parts will show hints of getting weaker before they go. So when you are doing your cleaning you can go inspect those areas for wear pattern and funny business.

Of course there will be parts that will fail without warning. But that is true on any machine. You just have to deal with the fact that nothing men creates is flawless. Isn't that why we, say, practice the rack-tap thingie?

I don't have it in front of me, but somewhere out in my manuals I have a copy of the FBI in-house report written about pistols in use in law enforcement from about '87-'89. In it, they were comparing operation, functioning and stoppages observed with an assortment of the commonly used 9/.45 pistols of that time.

One of the references made was how the tested pistols compared to their HRT pistols in-service at that time (as a control, so to speak), which were Browning HP's. It was mentioned that they had provided an acceptable service life and were still in-service at the time, and had reached an average of 85K rounds fired. (They shoot a lot. )

Of course, their guns are well inspected, maintained and repaired, as needed.

I'd also not be surprised if they considered replacement of an occasional barrel or slide, let alone some of the smaller components (extractors, ejectors, etc) to be an acceptable support/repair occurrence. I know another major agency, of similar size, who eventually found they had to replace some slides and barrels as they cracked over time (approaching 20 years of service use), and kept the guns that could be repaired in-service.

Barrel lugs may eventually wear, break, sheer, etc., but keeping the recoil springs fresh can help mitigate battering.

I've seen ejectors and extractors in other makes/models of gun start to wear, become damaged (chipped) or even break in as little as 10-20K rounds. Listening to factory repair techs and other armorers, it's not something that's all that surprising.

I had a 6906 extractor start to chip at about 12K rounds (although it had been previously issued and used). That particular early production 3rd gen 6906 eventually required a replacement slide (suspected machining issue appeared after 12-15K rounds), and some other little parts & springs as time passed. I used it for my regular plainclothes assignment, as well as one of my instructor/training guns, so I had an obvious interest in keeping it well maintained. I replaced recoil springs sooner than the typical factory recommendations (5yrs or 5K rounds).

The aluminum frame eventually started to appear a bit worn, but was still within acceptable spec and functioning normally, when I finally decided to pull the gun and retire it (take it out-of-service) ... after it had reached what I estimated to have been 45+K rounds fired (a mix of standard pressure, +P & +P+, as the issued rounds changed over time). Yes, I trusted my life to it right up until I finally decided to take it out-of-service, before it actually demonstrated a problem with the frame. I thought that was a pretty decent service life for an older production 3rd gen with an aluminum frame, myself.

I've also had to replace some other extractors & ejectors in well-worn S&W 3rd gen guns as an armorer. Aside from some user abuse (loading chambers without using a magazine :banghead: ), we didn't start seeing ejectors and extractors starting to require replacement until guns had been in-service for 12-20 years. Even so, we're only talking about a couple dozen or so guns out of a few hundred. Didn't seem unreasonable.

I had a trigger bar & firing pin go out of proper spec on my G27 at close to 15K rounds fired. That doesn't happen all that often, but it's one of the things to be inspected & checked during a periodic armorer level inspection, which is when I found it. I caught it during an inspection, before it had exhibited any problems, and replaced the necessary parts to restore normal spec & tolerance. Interestedly enough, one of my G26's, which had also seen approx 15K rounds fired, still exhibited excellent spec when inspected. (Or, as the Glock instructor commented when my case was mentioned during a class, it wasn't all that surprising that the harder recoiling .40 had developed that issue before the 9mm gun. )

Triggers, hammers, sears and extractors for 1911's don't have an indefinite service life, either.

If you have a good gunsmith you trust, why not have the HP inspected, and discuss setting up some sort of inspection & preventive maintenance schedule?

I know replacement of recoil & magazine springs is always a rather contentious topic on public internet gun forums ... but I'd still offer the thought that it's a good idea to replace recoil springs before they're so worn they've already let battering of frames, slides and barrels occur. (But hey, I don't like the tires on my vehicles to run so long the belts are showing, either, just to try an eek out every last mile of use. )

As one of the armorer instructors in one of my recert classes observed last year ... fresh recoil springs help keep guns alive. He mentioned it a few times.

Just a thought.

Bartholomew,

Good Question.

Personally, I have allowed myself to trade or sell perfectly good, reliable firearms for something that I read a rave review about on THR or elsewhere, perhaps shooting a larger cartridge. It goes without saying I have almost always regretted those trades. So, I have let well-used pistols go for no good reason other than curiosity and stupidity.

But I believe your real issue is, when do you stop trusting a firearm that has been reliable, because the round count is approaching the likelihood of some major mechanical malfunction?

I wish firearms owners would give their guns "regular check ups" from a gunsmith or replace small parts on a regular basis, like you get a physical, your teeth cleaned or your eyes examined. That could keep a trusted instrument running well for decades.

To answer your question: for me, it would be several thousand rounds, on the order of 4,000-5,000. For me that could be a decade for a primary self-defense arm (regular practice only -- I'm not in any leagues and I don't reload.) Then I would send it back to the factory or a good gunsmith for an inspection and replacement parts.

Or you could just purchase another model of the same gun, with the hope and expectation that it would be just as reliable.

I have two S&W 642s, one is about 10 years old and the other 4-5 years old. They are still running like tops.

I don't know that a Hi-Power has the longevity of a 1911 but 1911's will go for well over a 100k rounds with proper pm's and care. I used to know a guy who claimed his 1911 had around 250k rounds through it. Since they are both the brain child of J M Browning I expect Hi-Powers to be good for way more than your current 30K rounds.

I have some old race gun 1911's with the kind of round count you're talking about and I'd expect them to do anything I need to do with nothing more than a clean and lube.

I presume you have the original barrel.

I used a P-35 to make expert in IPSC years ago. Won a sectional with it.

I found shooting +p after a while did shear off the underlug off the barrel!

The P-35 was not made for +p+ at all (love it as I do.)

I do have the MK III but I use Glocks now. IDPA I used a 17 to make expert and win a few state trophies.

I got the Glock cause it had the reliability of the P-35 but lasted much longer and could use +p+ all day.

Yes fix it back up and then use it as a fun range gun.

Then, ha ha ha, as Tommy Lee Jones said, get a Glock cause it 'works every time'.

Deaf

Great topic! I have a BHP that was my primary CCW for around 20 years. It needs a bit of work before I would be able to carry it again. Not long ago I bought a new Garrett IWB for it but I'm not sure if it will ever get carried a lot again. As much as I love the gun my HK P30s, VP9 and P2000 have some advantages in some areas over the venerable HP.

With proper maintenance I expect your BHP keep chugging away for years to come. But it seems prudent to have some set point in mind where you retire it to range-gun status. I imagine that point is gonna be somewhat arbitrary.

I'm reminded of an article I read on the half-life of radioactive elements. A physicist can look at a pile of it and tell you with incredible accuracy and precision how much will decay by the hour, day, year, decade, etc. But gather all the best scientists in the world together and they will have no idea whatsoever which atom will be the next to decay. There are no signs we've been able to discern and while in bulk we know how much it will decay, on an individual-atom level we're totally in the dark.

Short of being able to do some kind of MPI on the parts of your BHP it's probably a guess, too. Visible cracks and stuff you'll obviously catch but it's hard to tell what part could fail.

I would actually expect a Hi Power to last at least as long at a 1911 for the simple reason that I would expect Mr. Browning to, as any good engineer, to continually improve on previous designs and learn from past mistakes. That said, I would not expect a 1911 to last 100K rounds without maintenance, which means replacing parts. In that aspect, it is no different than any well designed gun.

Elaborating on what others, me included, stated above, I would state if the frame is not compromised and the failed part can be obtained, the gun is serviceable. But, on the end of the day you are the one to make the call. Using again the example someone posted in this thread about cars, some people buy cars new and keep them for 3-5 years or up to a year before warranty expires and before any major work. Then car is replaced with the next new car and the cycle continues. Others buy cars and keep them until they cannot get parts for them or catastrophic failure -- some would say engine would not qualify as that, but frame damage would -- happens. And yet most would be between those two. And then there is a group that seems to interesect between the first and third groups that will not mantain the cars -- I knew a girl in that group -- who would let, say, the car die due to no oil changes or transmission check, and then buy another one. IMHO, gun owners belong to those different groups; you just have to find which one you belong and move on.

Hi Point has a lifetime warranty that follows the gun. I personally think that is a good idea both for the customer -- gives a feel the company stands behind its product -- and to the company. For the manufacturer, that allows them to get real life data about their products so they can improve on it. Of course, if your product breaks a lot so the repairs are starting to hurt your business financially, maybe you want to end that line. And, if you keep putting out new products on the market, well...

But I digress

Just more very good reasons to carry a revolver for "business purposes". Pistols have reliability problems simply because there are a lot of things that can go wrong and stop them from functioning. And more so because they are now mainly mass produced to a price point.

Why not just go buy an identical gun for practice and put all of the new wear on it? That's what I did with my P9. My carry gun gets cleaned and inspected, and occasionally I will fire a mag thru it just to verify function, but all of my practice is done with the sacrificial gun.

If you've owned that P-35 for as long as you indicate then, on a guess, I'd say that (like me) you're able to take it apart, and break it down into its individual components, literally, 'in your sleep'.

From this perspective, as long as the frame isn't cracked or heavily peened, you should be able to easily install replacement parts anytime you feel the need. This is, pretty much, what I've done with a lot of my own older pistols. I've, also, found that it's the springs you have to watch the most carefully, and change more frequently on any heavily used pistol.

As for your concerns about the pistol failing during a CQB pistol combat event? Well, ....... that's what the other pistol in your front left pocket is for! By the way, John M. Browning did NOT, 'invent' the P-35. Instead he did a few rough sketches; and, thereafter, left the actual design details and final testing up to one of his senior Belgian engineers, Dieudonné Saive.


PS: In any pistol gunfight there's no good reason not to have an extra magazine with you - NOT because you might need more bullets; but, instead, because magazine malfunctions are actually the most common problem you can experience with any semiautomatic pistol.

Drail said:

Just more very good reasons to carry a revolver for "business purposes". Pistols have reliability problems simply because there are a lot of things that can go wrong and stop them from functioning. And more so because they are now mainly mass produced to a price point.

Click to expand...

Well, yes. But revolvers are not 100% reliable either. Revolvers have more moving parts that pistols. I own several Ruger revolvers and considered them bomb proof until the Vaqueros I used for Cowboy Action Shooting both broke small parts and stopped working at around 5,000 live rounds and maybe 4-5 times than number of dry fires. No way I would have predicted those failures or replaced the parts that did fail in any reasonable preventive maintenance scenario.

I carry either a Glock 19 or a 26 for "business purposes" even thought they are mass produced to a price point.

"1) the KKM barrel sheared off its lug at 7,102 rounds
2) the extractor claw broke off at about 31,500 rounds
3) the ejector tip broke off at 19,894 rounds (despite this, the gun continued to run but stoppages went up to about 10-20%)" [Bartholomew Roberts]

Number 1 is very scary, not much to do except throw gun at perp and hope aim is good. Assume manufacturer replaced barrel free of charge?

Number 2 happened to me on a brand new SA 1911 after firing 200 rounds. Interestingly, the gun continued to work, the empties were not tossed out... they sort of dribbled out slowly. Factory sent me a free replacement very quickly.

My solution to critical breakages...

Carry a BUG, always.

Buy a second identical gun, practice with one, carry the other.

Breakages are going to happen regardless of the gun quality, recall that tragedy in New Jersey when a state trooper had his HK P7 fail (firing pin) in the midst of a fight, cost him his life.

As for my Hi-Power, it is a great gun, however, I always carry a BUG.

I generally keep a few examples of my carry gun. The gun that gets shot a lot at the range is not the gun that I carry, and the carry gun is functionally checked on occasion but I don't use it as a range beater.

Makes sense to me.

Elkins45 said:

Why not just go buy an identical gun for practice and put all of the new wear on it? That's what I did with my P9. My carry gun gets cleaned and inspected, and occasionally I will fire a mag thru it just to verify function, but all of my practice is done with the sacrificial gun.

Click to expand...

This is the way to go IMO.

I stopped shooting my home defense shotgun much after about 2000 rounds. The home defense back up pistol had about 10,000 rounds through it and I had it sent in for a maintenance and new springs. I,don't shoot it much. I now have dedicated trainer pistols and shotguns of same make that I shoot a lot that way if it breaks, it is the training pistol.