up to 20% of shooters unknowingly put finger on trigger under stress?

Afaik, there are no shooters that are trained to keep their finger off the trigger. They are always trained to put their finger on the trigger. No wonder the problem here.

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Sorry...what?

I will GUARANTEE you that my Drill Sgt. could break any trainee of that habit. You wouldn't like it - but you'd quit doing it. The problem is still poor training. Of course now there are limits on what Instructors are allowed to do as far as "touching" a recruit. Military training "used to be" MUCH better than LEO has ever thought about being. No comparison. But those days are pretty much over. Glocks are in LEO holsters because they underbid everyone else. That is the only reason - the people at City Hall who make the choice are only looking at the price. They don't know the first thing about firearms or training.

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And how many live the rest of their lives doing everything the DS told them to do?
As to your thoughts on Glocks, Hogwash!! There are millions of people who have purchased Glock pistols without going through the City Hall Bean Counters. Are we all just posers?

Woah, simmer down a bit. He didn't say GLocks are in YOUR holster because of City Hall bean counters. He said they were chosen for purchase by departments because of cost.

Which is probably at least 40% true. Can't beat 40% true. Not on the internet!

Sam the implication is clear,

Glocks are in LEO holsters because they underbid everyone else. That is the only reason - the people at City Hall who make the choice are only looking at the price. They don't know the first thing about firearms or training.

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To state that LE pistols are purchased with only cost in mind is a bit disingenuous as is implying that it is done without input with from people knowledgeable in guns and training.

I'd make the same statement about any other service weapon.

I say give them gun training.

Have the training be several weeks and only in the last week or two have them dry-fire and live fire.

It would go something like this.

1. When to shoot, legalities.

2. Safety.

3. Familiarization of weapons, retention.

4. Dry/ live fire.

5. Tactics, training, cover.

As you can see by my list, I have no idea what I am talking about, but if you stress more safety and theory first before actually shooting stuff it engraines certain principles first.

Such as when to draw, when to shoot, safety and whatnot.

The instructor(s) in every class I've ever taken always insisted, very loudly sometimes, going all the way back to 1956, that you keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire at the target.

moxie said:

The instructor(s) in every class I've ever taken always insisted, very loudly sometimes, going all the way back to 1956, that you keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire at the target.

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As have I. We all "know" that.

What it doesn't account for is tripping and falling. Getting startled. And having a sympathetic response when the hand tightens. And the finger still winds up on the trigger.
We can tell people not to rear end other cars all day long, yet, it still happens. Humans make mistakes. The body doesn't always react exactly like it should.

A light short trigger. Without a seperate safety. Makes that "bang" easier.

So, what's your point? Stay home? Keep your gun locked up? It might go off you touch it!

Post #5 saved me some typing

So, what's your point? Stay home? Keep your gun locked up? It might go off you touch it!

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No. Just that simply telling people to keep their finger off the trigger, even loudly, doesn't always work.

Nothing "always" works.

One does the best one can.

Take a decently designed gun and train with it intensively. That's the best one can do.

Part of that training includes keeping one's finger off the trigger.

Not everyone will follow their training. Most will.

sgt127, it seems like you dislike Glocks, because they don't have a separate safety like the 1911s you favor. I understand. That's why when I carry an auto and it's not a 1911, it's an M&P, with safety.

When to take the safety off is yet another discussion. But the response to the OP is that fingers stay off the trigger until ready to shoot.

Sam,

Many an instructor will "punish" a student for putting their finger on the trigger at the wrong time. None "train" the student to always keep their finger off the trigger. Big difference!

Punishment is not training and is detrimental to learning.

murf

Uh, I guess we'll have to agree do disagree strongly about that. Actually, I'm stretching to find any part of it I agree with. I assume there's a punch line? Or a twist by which you're looking at this from a different angle somehow?

I know at least one (amateur though may be) instructor who spends a lot of careful time training finger discipline with very, very few instances of having to punish a student for it.

That would be me.

I'm probably the only one in the world like that though. Ya think?


I'd say that only a very limited instructor would have no tools in his/her toolbox except punishment for wrong actions. Sure, that works and works well if it has to (punishment ABSOLUTELY can be a very direct path to learning) but it is pointlessly limited seeing as nearly all of us have the communication skills to explain and instill GOOD habits, not just whup the bad ones out of somebody.

So, you've really lost me with this line of discussion.

Read post #15 and tell me shooters don't get punished for putting their finger on the trigger at the wrong time.

Shooters should first be taught to never put their finger on the trigger. They should then be taught to put their finger on the trigger only as a part of the shot process.

In essence, the trigger finger becomes a recoil spring. It stays straight out along side the frame until the shot is made. It, then, automatically recoils up against the frame immediately after the shot.

murf

I WROTE post 15, so I know quite well what it says.

Sure, IN COMPETITION, with bystanders and staff and a highly dynamic situation, violating any safety rule gets you immediate negative feedback.

But that's not TRAINING, at all.

How did that get so confused?


...

In fact, EVERY practical/competition instructor I've trained under, or know takes great care to teach a new shooter that the finger ALWAYS rides along the frame of the gun, above the trigger, straight out, unless you're actually firing a shot. It is a fundamental first step in learning good gun-handling. (And not only that, they have to teach it because their students will get dinged or DQ'd in matches if they don't!) That's why I'm so baffled that you'd say 'no' instructor does this. In my experience, it is universal. The "tactical" guys I know do too.

My point exactly. It is not training, it is punishment for making a mistake. Obviously, those punished shooters never learned to always keep their finger off the trigger.

This is kinda new, sam. Most people won't understand what I am trying to get at. Nothing personal meant by referring to your post.

murf

My point exactly.

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WHAT is your point, exactly? I surely do not follow.

It is not training, it is punishment for making a mistake.

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In competition, WHICH IS NOT TRAINING, yes, that's a punishment.

In TRAINING, which is not competition, there is ... training so the shooter knows how to proceed safely. Yes, absolutely, EVERY competition and tactical instructor trains the student that the finger rides along the frame of the gun, above the trigger -- not on it! -- until a shot is to be fired, and returns to that rest position immediately after shots are fired. It is a universal training point. Only if a student is physically dangerous or completely obtuse and just not remembering after much training, does "punishment" ever come into play.

Obviously, those punished shooters never learned to always keep their finger off the trigger.

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A) I hear "finger" calls given ...maybe ... twice or three times a year. It isn't terribly common, though it certainly does happen. b) It might mean they "never" learned. It might mean they forgot in one moment of action. Seeming to prove the article's point to some degree, forgetting or mental slipping sure does happen.

I've seen FAR worse mental goofs from VERY highly trained and experienced shooters. Stuff happens. Layers of safety for a reason.

This is kinda new, sam.

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What, exactly, is kind of new? I don't understand.

If you're saying that the idea of your finger ALWAYS being extended along the frame of the gun unless you are in the act of firing a shot is new, I don't agree. I was taught that as a kid, and I've seen a lot of shooters doing carpentry projects who automatically hold even their cordless drills in that same grip, with extended trigger finger along the body of the drill, far from the trigger switch. It's most definitely a thing that is heavily trained.

Most people won't understand what I am trying to get at.

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I'll agree with that!

ALL Guns Are Deadly....(In The Hands Of Negligent People)

Old Lady New Shooter;

About Bob Owens and his website, "Bearing Arms": I have been reading "Bearing Arms" almost every day now for several years; I read the same story you read, apparently a day before you did; and I posted a new thread on this forum regarding Bob Owen's "mis-guided" article. Please allow me to tell you a little about Bob Owens.

Mr. Owens is basically a fine young man; He's apparently a pretty good shooting instructor, and I know he "knows a lot about guns" because he's been through several courses at one of, (if not "the") most prestigious firearms training facilities in this country, the "Gunsite" academy in Arizona. People who get their training at "Gunsite" pay a VERY hefty fee, but they can always say that "they trained at the best"! Now, keeping all of that in mind for just a moment, let me tell you about one other alumnus of Gunsite; His name is Richard Mann; Mr. Mann is a very highly regarded gun writer and instructor; compared to Bob Owens, Richard Mann is light years ahead of Bob Owens as a gun writer, as a firearms instructor, and as an all around "authority" on guns and "gun handling"; I happen to know all of this partly because I have been reading Bob Owens website almost daily over several years, and partly because I just finished reading Richard Mann's excellent book (aimed at new-comers to guns and shooting); I highly recommend that all new shooters can benefit greatly from this book, "Hand Gun Training For Personal Protection".

Oddly enough, even though I'm a Glock owner, I really enjoyed Mr. Mann's writing style, even though he stated in his book that: "He HATES Glock pistols", even though he was obliged to carry a Glock for 13 years as a member of a large city police force; I wouldn't expect a newcomer to guns and shooting to understand what I'm driving at here, as there is far too much to this story than I have the time or space for in this post; (it has to do with different types of guns, namely the 1911's used at Gunsite, and the more modern, polymer frame, striker-fired semi-autos such as Glocks and their many "copiers").

To save time and to put it bluntly, I'll tell you where Bob Owens is "all wet" in his very misguided statements concerning Glock pistols; anyone who has ever trained at Gunsite is almost guaranteed to be a huge "fan" of the most "prestigious" hand gun ever designed, the venerable model 1911 semi auto. And anyone who has trained at Gunsite, I can guarantee you will KNOW, and be instantly able to recite "The Four Rules";

Rule #1. All guns are always loaded;
Rule #2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy;
Rule #3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target

IMHO, if I had made the rules, I would have made Rule #3, Rule #1.

But here we have Bob Owens blaming Glock pistols because "so many Glocks are involved in what some people refer to as "accidental discharges"; Fact; there ARE NO "accidental discharges"; there ARE quite a few "negligent discharges"; big difference! And guess what.......if you are inclined to be "negligent", my best advice is either train harder, and more frequently, or take up knitting and stay away from guns and chain saws, because they are both deadly in the hands of a "negligent" person.

Apparently Bob Owens has forgotten Rule #3? Because Rule #3 applies to Glock, 1911s, revolvers, and any other kind of gun you might have.

I applaud Bob Owens for starting "Bearing Arms" and publishing daily, all of the many stories where "a good guy with a gun" saves the day, and the "bad guy" bites the dust! But all he's accomplished with this ridiculous article was to make himself look ignorant in the eyes of several million Glock pistol shooters and others knowledgeable about guns, all while giving "mis-information" to talk about to the hundred million "anti-gunners" who think all guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens are a hazard to humanity.

Charley C

I'm a bit surprised that it's taken the media this long to start bagging on Glocks for being "unsafe". Or maybe I just missed the stories "back in the day". In a lot of ways a Glock has always struck me as being similar to a cocked-and-unlocked 1911. Granted, a Glock will be less likely to fire say when dropped than a series 70, but putting a safety on the trigger is still a bit like putting gas peddle on the brake peddle.

Still, there's a trade off. How many NDs are there with Glocks vs other kinds of guns? How many hits does an offer gets with a Glock vs other kinds of guns?

Almost everything has advantages and disadvantages. Take the manual safety of the 1911 as a great example. I know of at least one case where a person was shot and nearly killed in a gunfight when he forgot to disengage the safety. He would have almost certainly been killed had his foe not run out of bullets (the perp came back to the now supine and helpless good guy to deliver to the coup de grace only to be out of ammo). On the other hand there are several documented cases where a cop was saved from being shot with his own gun when a perp couldn't figure out how to operate the manual safety. So pick your poison!

I'm not an expert but I'd say I'm a pretty decent shot. And I'd say it's not a stretch to say it's a lot easier to shoot a 1911 accurately than a DA revolver. The only wheelgun I have now is a Ruger 3" LCRx and while I shoot it pretty well I absolutely shoot my BHP or VP9 better. I would wager than given an equal amount of training the average cop would get more and better hits with a Glock (with the standard trigger) than they would with most revolvers. The flip side is there will probably be more instances of unintended BANG!s with the Glock. Again, pick your poison.

I'm a bit surprised that it's taken the media this long to start bagging on Glocks for being "unsafe".

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At first they cried it was a plastic gun that would waltz through metal detectors. That was proven bogus.

So I guess now they say it's unsafe, as if other guns haven't had AD/NDs.

Just another straw man.

Deaf

If you want to learn how to always keep your finger off the trigger (so you won't shoot yourself or others), teach yourself to say "finger off the trigger", over and over, whenever you are around guns. Kind of like "the little engine that could". It kept repeating "I think I can" all the way up the hill. Likewise, you should repeat "finger off the trigger" all the way up your hill.

Pretty soon, you will not have to say or think of that phrase, you will just do It.

I am not telling you to keep your finger off the trigger. I am showing you how you can always keep your finger off the trigger.

murf

Ok. I suppose that's a plausible training tool. I guess I can't say you shouldn't mumble that incantation to your self whenever you're around a gun. If it works for you, great. I know many hundreds of shooters who've built the very highest safety practices without a repeated mantra like that, but it could help some folks, I'm sure.

Of course, if you can forget to DO the right safety practices, you can certainly forget to ceaselessly talk to yourself as well, especially under stress.

I'm unsure how to think about that idea.

The only way to make your trigger squeeze, grip and sight alignment automatic (a subconscious action), is a lot of repetition (practice). In the beginning, a shooter has to think through every step of the shooting process. With time and a lot of practice, the shooter doesn't have to think about the steps. They are done automatically.

"finger off the trigger" is learned in a similar way. The practice is a bit different, but the goal is the same: doing it without thinking about it.

murf

Ok, yes, I agree with that! And that's the way I and all the other people I shoot with or have shot with were trained.

Of course, training for a basic safety function like "finger off trigger" isn't terribly long or complicated. You get a short period of training on this, and then it is entirely upon you, the shooter, to remember and practice that habit. Beyond that, reprimand by your trainer or fellow shooters, or punishment by officials, are both necessary to ensure the safety of all, and a more sharply effective training tool.