Training vs. Experience

[AOK]

To me the take away here is not to underestimate your opponent. Depending on who the criminal is he’s very like had more guns pointed at him than you have and very likely won’t be intimidated when he sees yours.

Even in this thread I see people totally discounting the concept that the criminal might just be more prepared than they are. That’s not a mindset I’d want to get stuck in and then find out different the hard way.

.

I'm with you here for the most part. I train to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

While a criminal may not be intimidated by looking at your gun as you stated, that does not mean their desire to not be shot is any different than ours. At any rate, if someone has a gun for intimidation then they have a lot bigger issues with their mindset. The issues are much deaper than underestimating a threat IMHO.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Training is good. Experience is better.

You can have all sorts of training in simulated, laser, and live fire situations. But that can all go out the window when you get on a two way firing range. I have seen it happen. I trained with the same unit for 4 years before I saw my first combat. That is when you truly see how well someone takes to their training. You can have the hotshot guy who did well in training, lose his mind when rounds start bouncing off his truck. And, conversely, you can have the guy who never really took training seriously, thought he was bulletproof be almost freakishly calm and efficient under fire.

If you don't have training then the chances of being able to claim experience are slim to none. Experience means you survived an incident and what helped you survive was your training. Only through luck can you claim experience without training. No training = no experience

 

[Kleanbore]

And, conversely, you can have the guy who never really took training seriously, thought he was bulletproof be almost freakishly calm and efficient under fire.

Being successfully " 'efficient' under fire" implies adequate skill, and one is extremely unlikely to develop skill through experience in emergency situations, whether they involve gunfighting, air combat, the handling of a power plant or aircraft emergency, whatever. There are some simply too many variables, and there is insufficient opportunity for an adequate number of repetitions of varying action.

Experience can weed out those who do not have the temperament and it can add to confidence the next time, but without training and practice, practice, practice, one will only succeed through luck.

 

[CA Raider]

"We’ve had home invasions where the home owner found himself facing a fire team who had been trained and served in combat together. We’ve had incidents where soldiers were ambushing people and car jacking them or committing other crimes in which they were using the training and experience gained in combat. "

it's a very good point. and similar to what I was getting at earlier. As I look at replays of tactics used by crime syndicates, it is very clear that they are aware of all the top training methods used by civilians and SF soldiers. They are implementing them. So the standards being used by the "bad guys" are going up very quickly. We can't kid ourselves into thinking that we've got an edge, just because we went thru one "cool" training course, or one set of experiences.

gotta stay humble and keep working hard.

CA R

 

[brownie0486]

If you aren’t a cop and carry a concealed weapon to defend against criminal attack, how does your training stack up against the bad guys in this study?

Well, very well.

There is another factor that is even more important than training…it’s EXPERIENCE. All training is merely an artificial attempt to simulate a gunfight experience. Clearly experience matters; we try hard doing everything short of seeking out real gunfights to gain as much experience as possible in our practice sessions. In the “Violent Encounters” study, how do you think the criminals’ experience levels compared to the cops?

Most won't have the same number of violent encounters under their belts.

This study showed that the police officers were outmatched by their criminal opponents in every domain studied…training, experience, and mindset. If trained police officers are outmatched, where does that put the average citizen?

At a loss, possibly their life.

The other method of acquiring experience is to do so in the context of force-on-force training. The best type of this training is conducted at professional shooting schools and uses tightly-scripted professional role players. It is costly, but worth the expense. You will learn more in one day of this type of training than you will learn in weeks of practicing by yourself.

Concur, it's always an eye opener for those who've never had to try not getting shot while responding in their own defense.

The mindset, training, and experiences of your opponent are outside of your sphere of influence. You can’t control them. You can control those factors in your own life. Practice often, study, and do everything you can to make the odds in your favor!

Great advice, but few take it to heart based on historical record.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Being successfully " 'efficient' under fire" implies adequate skill, and one is extremely unlikely to develop skill through experience in emergency situations, whether they involve gunfighting, air combat, the handling of a power plant or aircraft emergency, whatever. "


Which is why, as a professional pilot, I am required to spend 30 hours a year in a synthetic reality simulator practicing emergencies. Practice makes perfect. Proficiency is maintained, not obtained. Skills are perishable.


It was said about the Roman Legions:

"Their drills were bloodless battles, and their battles were bloody drills".

Such is the result of good training.



Willie

.

 

[herrwalther]

If you don't have training then the chances of being able to claim experience are slim to none. Experience means you survived an incident and what helped you survive was your training. Only through luck can you claim experience without training. No training = no experience

True to a degree. I don't discount training entirely. As before you have the experience, training is all you have. Which is why I started off with training is good but experience is better.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

At any rate, if someone has a gun for intimidation then they have a lot bigger issues with their mindset. The issues are much deaper than underestimating a threat IMHO.

But right here on this forum you can read page after page of people telling you that one of the reasons that they don't carry a round in the chamber is the intimidation factor of racking the slide.

There a are bunch of folks that think all they need the gun for is to intimidate the bad guy

 

[Trent]

But right here on this forum you can read page after page of people telling you that one of the reasons that they don't carry a round in the chamber is the intimidation factor of racking the slide.

There a are bunch of folks that think all they need the gun for is to intimidate the bad guy

Sometimes, that's true.

I stopped a violent encounter once by drawing a firearm. Didn't even point it at the guy jumping over the counter - just backed off three steps, while drawing. Kept the gun pointed low ready.

He stopped in is tracks (on the countertop in the store), and said "That ain't real."

I racked the slide and a live round flew out.

His face turned white, he got down, and ran out the door to the store.

So... it CAN go down that way.

Doesn't mean it always WILL go down that way.

If you start out with an empty chamber there's a very real chance the guy will think you're holding an airsoft or BB gun and come at you anyway. And then what?

If I'd had an empty chamber to start with and that dude kept coming, he would have closed the 3 steps from the counter before I had a chance to chamber it. Then I'd be screwed. (Dude was a body builder, 3x my size.)

 

[CA Raider]

"If I'd had an empty chamber to start with and that dude kept coming, he would have closed the 3 steps from the counter before I had a chance to chamber it. Then I'd be screwed. "

very glad that situation worked out well for you.

not faulting you here. just adding that if you practice the move - you can rack that slide and point the weapon as a combined move. it can be very quick. you might not stop a ninja master, but a body builder wont make it in time

CA R

 

[Trent]

"If I'd had an empty chamber to start with and that dude kept coming, he would have closed the 3 steps from the counter before I had a chance to chamber it. Then I'd be screwed. "

very glad that situation worked out well for you.

not faulting you here. just adding that if you practice the move - you can rack that slide and point the weapon as a combined move. it can be very quick. you might not stop a ninja master, but a body builder wont make it in time

CA R

Everything physical can be done quicker. But mental stuff.. that's tougher.

I had little warning before the guy jumped the counter. About as long as it took for this guy to eyeball one of my employees and yell "you're dead --------". Then up and over he goes.

The gun was under the counter; I didn't want to back off and let him get between me and the gun. So it came back with me, held low. He saw the gun and froze.

I had no intention of using it - the situation hadn't escalated to that point. But I also had no intention of letting this guy roll over me and break my employee in two, either!

OODA loops are complex critters.

Just saying you may have extremely little time to actually take action. We run a drill in my classes, where the shooter is on the line facing the target, and a runner starts facing the other way with his hand on your shoulder. When the runner lets go, it's your signal to draw and shoot two shots. At the first bang, the runner drops what he's carrying in his hand (doesn't matter what, soda bottle works). At the second shot, the runner stops.

You'd be *really* surprised how far the average guy can make it, before you can put two shots on target.

When you see how much ground a person can cover, drawing a ready to fire firearm, you'll see there's no time to rack a slide. Heck run the drill and see how much more ground a person can cover, if you have to rack the slide and fire. (Good drill to do too, you can also add a ball & dummy and simulates a first round failure!)

 

[Averageman]

The first thing that the researchers learned is that our assumptions about criminals not training are wrong. Nearly 40% of the criminal attackers in this study had received FORMAL firearms training (mostly in the military).

FAIL;
Let us even more alienate our vets and spread fear.
I hope your fat wallet makes you feel better during our holiday season.
I hope you sleep well at night after that!

 

[Sam1911]

The first thing that the researchers learned is that our assumptions about criminals not training are wrong. Nearly 40% of the criminal attackers in this study had received FORMAL firearms training (mostly in the military).

FAIL;
Let us even more alienate our vets and spread fear.
I hope your fat wallet makes you feel better during our holiday season.
I hope you sleep well at night after that!

What the heck? Holy non sequitur, Batman!

He didn't say "vets are criminals." He said, "some criminals are vets and trained."

That's a TRUE statement, not someone's unfounded opinion, nor anything we should ever be afraid or ashamed to admit boldly.

Hiding from the truth won't make it better or lessen the impact of reality.

Let's be better than to cower behind knee-jerk defensiveness. ... this holiday season.

 

[JohnBiltz]

There were less than 600 police officers killed by beatings, stabbings and shooting in the last ten years. No doubt there were a lot more who lived through their injuries and quite a few of those totals did not go after the police it just sort of happened. So we are really talking about the tip of the spear in those stats posted. Are there extremely dangerous competent criminals out there, sure, without a doubt. I think it would be a grave mistake to think everyone robbing a stop and rob is one though. Its like expecting a master jewel thief to be breaking into your apartment. I'm not living for a gun fight. I carry to live my life and I enjoy shooting.

 

[d2wing]

Some young criminals do join the military for training. Unusual I hope as I am a Vet and do not like that image or association.

 

[Infidel4life11]

I enjoy the actual discussion we are having here. Also we are looking at this from multiple different angles. Here's my piece:

Travis Haley said it best "Never be absolute". We can't say this IS going to be the way my encounter is going to happen and it will be with this type of person. We can have a good most likely scenario given where we live and a good observation of our surroundings but that doesn't mean it's going to go down like that.

We've all seen the criminals that are horrible at being criminals and the flip side we've seen the criminals that are great at being criminals.

Experience is one heck of a teacher.

Your training is what your mind and body will fall back on. I train a lot with and without the Army. With every competition I find myself getting better and find things I need to work on.

In Iraq/Afghanistan as soon as we thought we knew how the enemy was going to come at us they changed tactics. We all have to be adaptive.

Good talk everyone keep it up.