For Those Who Want A Tavor...
- Thread starter HGM22
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I think a lot of people would bite if it was only slightly higher priced than a quality AR. In the case of the tavor it would also help if one wasnt looking at dropping another few hundred on a trigger (same for the scar). Give the lead ballon decline of AR prices some of the less ubiquitous competitors are tougher sales.
As an example people were pumped for the next gen Masada. It was supposed to be $1200 is. I don't recall but I think at the time a Colt AR was close to that in price 1000-1100. When it came in as the acr at closer to $2k (plus a bunch of crappy design changes it hit the market and flopped. At $1200 and original specs I think it would have sold like crazy.
As an example people were pumped for the next gen Masada. It was supposed to be $1200 is. I don't recall but I think at the time a Colt AR was close to that in price 1000-1100. When it came in as the acr at closer to $2k (plus a bunch of crappy design changes it hit the market and flopped. At $1200 and original specs I think it would have sold like crazy.
Yeah, $1200-$1300 sounds like a good price range to me. I am not interested in paying the $1700 the Tavors go for or the $2100 the SCARs go for. I like the AUG A3 better than the Tavor, and they are s bit cheaper, but still a little much for what would end up being a range toy for me.
misterarman
Member
Don't ever shoot one if you don't want to pay 1700 for one. Lets not forget the cost of optics on top of it. I guess something is worth what the market will bare.
Are they worth $1700? They must be or they wouldn't be selling any.
Do I wish they had been less? Of course.
Do I regret getting one? Absolutely not.
Would I do it again? Absolutely.
I'm sorry but on this one comparing the Tavor with any kind of AR is like comparing apples and oranges. Aside from being the same caliber and taking the same mags they are two different animals.
Is it going to replace my beloved 38 year relationship with my ARs? No.
Do they have some awesome features? Heck yes.
Shorter rifle stance than a 2 handed pistol stance. Being able to shoot a rifle in control 1 handed. Being able to open a door with a rifle. Almost as short as an AR pistol with a 16" barrel instead.
Pretty amazing weapon.
Are they worth $1700? They must be or they wouldn't be selling any.
Do I wish they had been less? Of course.
Do I regret getting one? Absolutely not.
Would I do it again? Absolutely.
I'm sorry but on this one comparing the Tavor with any kind of AR is like comparing apples and oranges. Aside from being the same caliber and taking the same mags they are two different animals.
Is it going to replace my beloved 38 year relationship with my ARs? No.
Do they have some awesome features? Heck yes.
Shorter rifle stance than a 2 handed pistol stance. Being able to shoot a rifle in control 1 handed. Being able to open a door with a rifle. Almost as short as an AR pistol with a 16" barrel instead.
Pretty amazing weapon.
Ed Ames
Member
Unless there is some secret sauce that they are keeping really secret (as in it hasn't come up in anything I have read) is is a $750 to $1000 rifle depending on packaging, sans optics. It is a .223 rifle from an off brand.
Consider similar guns:
Off brand ARs sell for $500+
Mini-14s sell for $750
KSG sells for $750
RFB sells for $1200 (but is .308)
I have owned all of the above, and if the Travor was streeting at $750 I'd own (or have owned) one of them too. At $1000 they would have a harder sell but I would probably bite. $1500? Nope.
Consider similar guns:
Off brand ARs sell for $500+
Mini-14s sell for $750
KSG sells for $750
RFB sells for $1200 (but is .308)
I have owned all of the above, and if the Travor was streeting at $750 I'd own (or have owned) one of them too. At $1000 they would have a harder sell but I would probably bite. $1500? Nope.
elwoodm
Member
after 1k rnds put through my ar i have a good bit of wear on the cam pin and bolt carrier group. may need to replace some parts after 700 more rnds. the tavor has over 1k rnds and i can find no wear on anything. the bolt has just started to have the black coating from the factory showing some wear on it. 1700 is high but i will not have to replace anything on this gun as long as i own it and take care of it. 
blahpony
Member
My friend has a Tavor and it's fun to shoot. Not quite fun enough for that price, though.
Jackal
Member
Must be a really crappy BCG... You should get 8,000-10,000 rds out of a decent BCG pretty easily.
$1200 with a halfway decent trigger, I'd bite. But $1600 + $300 for a trigger and your gonna be in the $2000 range after taxes/transfer. If I'm dropping $2k on a rifle, its not going to be a 5.56....
Just a few thoughts (yeah, I bought one):
1. Paid $1,600 for mine.
2. Lower price would always be nicer.
BUT
3. It is a piston driven rifle (compare to piston AR's for apples to apples prices).
4. It's shorter than a SBR AR.
5. $200 saved by not getting a SBR tax stamp.
6. Don't have to ask "mother may I?" when transporting across state line.
SO...
When you narrow it down to a true apples to apples comparison AFA price, a piston driven SBR AR is a lot closer to the Tavor in price than the price comparisons most folks throw out there, AND it's still shorter than a SBR AR!
BTW - the trigger doesn't bother me a bit (but then again, I grew up on DA revolvers).
1. Paid $1,600 for mine.
2. Lower price would always be nicer.
BUT
3. It is a piston driven rifle (compare to piston AR's for apples to apples prices).
4. It's shorter than a SBR AR.
5. $200 saved by not getting a SBR tax stamp.
6. Don't have to ask "mother may I?" when transporting across state line.
SO...
When you narrow it down to a true apples to apples comparison AFA price, a piston driven SBR AR is a lot closer to the Tavor in price than the price comparisons most folks throw out there, AND it's still shorter than a SBR AR!
BTW - the trigger doesn't bother me a bit (but then again, I grew up on DA revolvers).
"after 1k rnds put through my ar i have a good bit of wear on the cam pin and bolt carrier group may need to replace some parts after 700 more rnds" ?
With 6000 or so through my M&A parts bolt and carrier, I have NO visible wear, and thats a 120$ set
With 6000 or so through my M&A parts bolt and carrier, I have NO visible wear, and thats a 120$ set
Ed Ames
Member
Why? Standard ARs work fine and have done so for decades. Stock to stock is the logical apples to apples comparison.
So is my RFB but I didn't pay any $1500 for that.
The Travor is basically a modern Mini-14 that can take AR mags. By that I mean limited parts availability, not very accurate, not very powerful, and unlike an AR I can't get a .458 socom upper.
I would love to have one. I like bullpups. But it doesn't make sense at $1600+.
sappyg
Member
I'm going to say that I could be interested at a grand. $900 would be more like it. The fact that it's new and has R&D costs do not show up on my radar as a consideration. It's a novelty at best for me.
Hey, ya won't get any argument from me. None of my AR's have a piston, and I see no real reason to have one.
It's just that some folks seem to rave about piston AR's, and I'd be willing to bet a number of those same folks are also the ones that compare a $500 DI AR to a piston driven Tavor.
I've been eyeballing bullpups for a loooooong time, but until the Tavor came along, none of 'em really floated my boat.
Compare a military grade weapon from IWI to anything from kel tec is pretty funny. Calling IWI off brand and comparing it to del ton or the like is just ignorant.
Sounds like a junk AR if you are needing to replace parts at 1.7K rounds. Seriously. Google something like BCM filthy 14 for what you can expect from a quality AR that would cost $800 bucks or so.
The tavor sells for what other gusn like it sell for and have sold for: AUG, PS90, FS2000, etc, etc.
I have owned bullpups and generally like them. Do I find they are clearly hands down than my ARs 16" and SBR, no not really. There are trade offs with each.
One thing that I never hear people bring up when they compare a bullpup to an SBR is weight. Length is one thing to compare but what about weight. A tavor sans optics is nearly 8 lbs. I think my AUG is about 7.5 ish but would need to weigh it. An 11.5" SBR with full features can hit 5.5 Lbs without much trouble. You can do a full feature non NFA "duty" weapon and get it to 6 Lbs if you like. see: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?146386-Noveske-Ultralight-(Update)
The reality is that a Tavor isn't really going to be a clear cut advantage for most uses versus a quality AR. It will in fact be worse for many specific tasks an AR can excel at. It is not ubiquitous with many many manufactures. It is a specialty item and sells at a specialty price.
Lord Teapot
Member
$1000 out the door, no legitimate reason for it to cost more than that considering the materials.
This assumes that piston driven is some kind of per se advantage. Its not really. In fact many piston ARs are not as good of guns as many of their DI counterparts. I get what you are trying to say but I think it is a flawed idea. The only piston AR I would even think about trading my noveske or BCM SBRs for would be a real deal 416 upper.
As long as you are saving money on the stamp add back in the money to put even a decent trigger in that Tavor.
And being designed and intended to fill the same basic role (now the AR is infinitely more adaptable and versatile for specialized applications). I like bullpups and own some for what its worth.
Ed Ames
Member
No military has ever issued the rifle sold in the US as a Tavor. Parts do not interchange between the TAR and SAR. The Tavor is, as far as I can tell, about as "military grade" as a Mini-14. Is that better or worse than Kel Tec? I don't know, but I haven't seen anything to make me believe any of these weapons are issued by real militaries.
IWI US is an almost textbook off brand. They have been around since 2012. The brand/parent company since 2005. They are like Local Motors or Mosler Automotive. Chances are you have never heard of either unless you are a car nut because they are off brands.
Agreed. The heaviest part of most firearms is the barrel and receiver. Bullpups do nothing to save weight in those areas and actually usually raise weight. Many bullpups need 18"+ barrels to meet the US federal minimum length, and putting that barrel/receiver closer to your cheek increases the desire for strength margins.
Well...a couple more points:
1. Weight - you also have to consider where that weight is located. While the Tavor might weigh more than some AR's, a fair amount of that weight is at your shoulder, so even though it may rack up higher numbers on a scale / spec sheet, in actual use, it tends to hide some of that weight since it's not hanging way down at the business end of the barrel.
And don't even think about picking up a piston AR and start comparing weights / maneuverability!
2. Yeah, you can get a really short barrel on your SBR, but what was once good ballistics often go south in a hurry. With the Tavor, you have the advantage of a full length barrel without sacrificing the cartridge's ballistics (and you still probably have a shorter overall length gun to boot).
1. Weight - you also have to consider where that weight is located. While the Tavor might weigh more than some AR's, a fair amount of that weight is at your shoulder, so even though it may rack up higher numbers on a scale / spec sheet, in actual use, it tends to hide some of that weight since it's not hanging way down at the business end of the barrel.
And don't even think about picking up a piston AR and start comparing weights / maneuverability!
2. Yeah, you can get a really short barrel on your SBR, but what was once good ballistics often go south in a hurry. With the Tavor, you have the advantage of a full length barrel without sacrificing the cartridge's ballistics (and you still probably have a shorter overall length gun to boot).
justice06rr
Member
Good points.
The Tavor is a cool rifle, and while I like its ergonomics and intended applications, it is not much better than a similarly-priced AR15/M4 rifle from a premium manufacturer like BCM or Daniel Defense. At $1500+, it would be a toss-up for me to decide between a DDM4 or a Tavor. If the Tavor was more in the $1100-1200 range, it would be more appealing to AR enthusiast who are looking to try something different.
While The Tavor does have some clear advantages such as a shorter OAL, piston-driven design, ambidextrous features, it also has some downfalls. Here are some from what I observe (being a non-owner of a Tavor):
-The less-than stellar trigger is the biggest complaint that most people will point out.
-Magazine changes is not as seamless compared to the AR/M4.
-Weight may be an issue for some (like women or weaker individuals), since its still around 8lbs considering the body is all polymer; you basic milspec AR like the Colt6920 is under 7lbs.
-Another big disadvantage is the inability to swap different calibers/uppers as you would with the AR15.
-The last disadvantage is less market support, and less interchangeability with the wide range of accesories available for the AR15 platform. Things like stocks, handguards/rails, pistol grips, etc which cannot be used on a Tavor because of its design.
So for a $1600 Bullpup, I would expect a little more. At least for me, if I were spend my hard-earned money on the Tavor, it would need to have a better trigger and weigh around 7lbs. Just my 2c.
HB
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For 600 bucks it still wouldn't interest me. It isn't really a rifle in the conventional meaning or useage. I've never had to clear or a room and doubt I ever will. I think it would be hard to shoot one offhand at 100 yards after shooting a normal rifle for years. But it does look like a great weapon for those that need a "weapon" for use under 300 yards.
HB
HB
Legitimate complaint.
With a little time and training invested I believe the Tavor would be faster.
After folks put forward grips lights and optics on their rifle they often weigh well over the stock weight, and considering the balance of the Tavor I doubt this would genuinely be an issue.
Another legitimate complaint, I believe they promised a 9mm, 7.62X39 and 5.45X39 conversions, but to my knowledge only the 9mm conversion is available.
I doubt any rifle produced today or in the future will have the same aftermarket support as the AR. The tavor is set up pretty well as it is and does have a growing aftermarket, but I'm not sure why it should be expected to take AR accessories. ymmv
I think its a +-$1,000 rifle, but unless the price is competitive with the cheapest mix mash AR it will never be considered the better choice for most users. Folks who expect a bullpup to be an AR will never be satistfied, if you wan't an AR, get an AR, if the pro's and con's of a bullpup appeal to you, the Tavor is a solid choice.
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