Primer choice for M1 Garand

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tcoz

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For those of you who handload .30-06 for an M1 Garand, what CCI primers do you use? I'll be loading 150gr FMJBT over IMR4895. I use CCI 5.56 NATO SRP's for my AR's but I don't know whether regular, magnum or NATO primers would be best for the Garand which I ordered yesterday from the CMP.
 
Thanks. That's what I figured I'd use even though I've read a lot of people just using regular CCI 200 LRP's. Don't want to chance a slam fire, especially on that rifle.
 
I've fired several thousand handloaded rounds through my M1 Garand using regular CCI 200 LR primers. No issues.

I've also loaded and fired many more thousands of handloaded rounds through my AR using regular CCI 400 primers. Again, no issues.
 
Make damn sure they're seated below flush and you can use CCI200 just fine. CCI34 may give you more peace of mind. I believe the 34 is considered a magnum primer but for the Garands you won't be loading max anyway. Keep bullet weight below 170 grains and 4895 around 47 and you'll be golden.
 
I use a Sheridan slotted gauge for 223 and 300 BLK and will definitely get one for 30-06. It sizes to minimum SAAMI spec. It's about $65 but well worth it.
 
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I use a Sheridan slotted gauge for 223 and 300 BLK and will definitely get one for 30-06. It sizes to minimum SAAMI spec. It's about $65 but well worth it.
Thanks, those look cool! The Wilson and similar don't gauge diameter, just headspace and length.
 
When available I like to use CCI #34 primers for M1 ammo but I have used standard Win LR primers and CCI-200 primers without incident. CCI #34 or CCI-250 primers are probably the best choices for M1 ammo.
 
I can only speak to the AR platform but the principles are the same. Because the firing pin is free-float, it "slams" into the primer every time a round is chambered. For evidence of this, chamber a round from a loaded clip (magazine on an AR) then take it out and you'll see a slight indentation on the primer where the firing pin hit it. This hit has been known to cause a slam-fire which although not common, isn't unheard of either. More than one of my friends have experienced them. Often, a primer that hasn't been seated deep enough is the cause but that isn't always the case. Primers don't cause or prevent slam-fires, but by using one that has a thicker cup such as a magnum or especially a NATO primer, you can really decreases the chances of one occurring.

NATO primers were developed because of a request by the military for a primer that was more resistant to slam-fires. I'm really only familiar with CCI, but their magnum rifle primers are a little hotter than their standard ones and they also have a slightly thicker cup. Their NATO primers are also loaded as hot as the magnums but also have a slightly thicker cup yet. Sometimes they're more expensive than magnums which are usually priced the same as standard so many people use them. All primers are priced the same where I buy them so I use the NATO primers.
 
Any large rifle primer should work fine in the Garand.

The thickness of the primer cup of large rifle primers is the same, whether its a "military primer," or a "magnum" primer, or a plain ol' primer.

I've used all of the above varieties in the Garand.
I see no difference whatsoever in performance.
 
Have always used Winchester LRP's until recently. Now using Tula LRP's due to price. Only LRP's I won't use in a Garand are Federals due to them being more sensitive.

Don
 
The thickness of the primer cup of large rifle primers is the same, whether its a "military primer," or a "magnum" primer, or a plain ol' primer.

I've only used small rifle primers and I know for a fact that the cup thicknesses are different between standard, magnum and NATO (mil-spec) for them. If I understand you correctly you're saying that large primers differ from the small primers in that the cup thicknesses are all the same on the large ones. If that's actually the case, how do they then make the NATO primers less sensitive which they are and is the basis for their existence?
 
I've only used small rifle primers and I know for a fact that the cup thicknesses are different between standard, magnum and NATO (mil-spec) for them. If I understand you correctly you're saying that large primers differ from the small primers in that the cup thicknesses are all the same on the large ones. If that's actually the case, how do they then make the NATO primers less sensitive which they are and is the basis for their existence?
According to WEG:
The thickness of the primer cup of large rifle primers is the same, whether its a "military primer," or a "magnum" primer, or a plain ol' primer.

While the below chart does not include all large rifle primers, of those it does include it runs with WEG's statement.

Primer%20Dimensions%20Rifle.png

All of the large rifle primers reflect the same cup thickness of 0.027". So why are some said to be more sensitive? My best guess is some may use a softer alloy composition, they may have a different cake mixture (more sensitive cake) and while the same thickness they do not share the same cup height. Beats the heck out of me which makes some more sensitive. Then too the Winchester flavors at 0.121 have the greater height and I would think that would make them more sensitive but it doesn't work out that way.

Finally, as Don mentions:
Have always used Winchester LRP's until recently. Now using Tula LRP's due to price. Only LRP's I won't use in a Garand are Federals due to them being more sensitive.

For decades I have believed the Federal primers to be more sensitive also. Here is an interesting comment on that taken from MASTER PO'S M1 loads (Courtesy of the NRA).

Master Po's Ancient M1 load secret

This is my personal M1 load I use in my CMP M1. It will shoot better than Master Po can. I worked this load up, as you should for your own rifle.

Remington .30/06 cases, flash holes deburred and weighed within 1 grain.
Federal GM210M Primers (Master Po has heard the horror stories of Federal match primers in the M1/M1A rifles. If you're squeamish or new to reloading, use Winchester Large Rifle)
47.0 grains IMR 4064
Sierra 175 grain MatchKing
Overall length 3.340 inches

This load, in my M1, duplicates almost perfectly the M72 match load specification with a very low standard deviation. Groups off the bench run 1 - 1.5 inches with the original 1945 barrel on the rifle. Of course, Grasshopper YMMV.

Take it all for what it may or may not be worth. The Hornady 9th Edition where they list M1 Garand Load Data calls out the use of WLR (Winchester Large Rifle) primers.

Ron
 
In reality it's really not the cup that helps prevent slam-fires, it's the compound sensitivity.

Right.

From CCI's web site...

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

CCI No. 34 and No. 41 Military Rifle Primers

Military-style semi-auto rifles seldom have firing pin retraction springs. If care is not used in assembling ammunition, a “slam-fire” can occur before the bolt locks. The military arsenals accomplish this using different techniques and components—including different primer sensitivity specifications—from their commercial counterparts. CCI makes rifle primers for commercial sale that matches military sensitivity specs that reduce the chance of a slam-fire when other factors go out of control*. If you’re reloading for a military semi-auto, look to CCI Military primers.
*Effective slam-fire prevention requires more than special primers. Headspace, chamber condition, firing pin shape and protrusion, bolt velocity, cartridge case condition, and other factors can affect slam-fire potential.



Features and Benefits

Mil-spec sensitivity
Initiator mix optimized for ball/spherical propellants
Available in large (No.34) and small (No. 41) rifle
Use the same data as CCI Magnum primers
 
When I bought my SuperMatch M1a’s, Springfield Armory provided a copy of Wayne Fattz’s article “The Mysterious Slamfire” which was printed in the American Rifleman in Oct 1983. http://www.scribd.com/doc/2649554/The-Mysterious-Slamfire-

Mr. Faatz had an out of battery slamfire, from the clip, with Federal primers. He wrote an article trying to understand why it happened to him.

First on his list of slamfire causes is a sensitive primer.
1. Sensitive Primer (included under this category is a high primer)
2. Minimum headspace chamber and inadequate case sizing (leading to the firing pin hitting the primer with excessive force)
3. Hammer following the bolt
4. Fouled bolt face


Mr Faatz ran a simple experiment dropping the bolt on primed cartridges. He was unable to have a high primer ignite until he inserted a spacer under his primer. This confirms CCI’s statement that high primers are the most common cause of misfires:

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
Page 5 of 9

The real story is that Boxer primers leave the factory with the anvil higher than it would be when seated in a cartridge case. Seating so anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket lets the anvil tip penetrate into the pellet of mix. The nearly universal recommendation of having the primer cup bottom 0.003 to 0.005 inch below flush with the case head exists to set the proper amount of priming mix between the cup and the anvil tip.

This critical distance is known as the bridge thickness. Establishing the optimum thickness through proper seating means the primer meets sensitivity specifications but does not create chemical instability. However, failing to set the bridge thickness through proper seating depth is the number one cause of primer failures to fire. The bridge thickness is too great with a high primer, even one whose anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket


Once Mr. Faatz put a spacer under his primer he met the conditions of a high primer, a firmly seated anvil and the anvil pushed into the primer cake.

SKS’s slamfire so often there are lots of slamfire reports with SKS’s, Murray’s has a firing pin modification to reduce the chance of slamfires. Also, the SKS boards has this excellent “A primer on primers”

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0

And for those who can read,

Springfield Armory M1A Manual, page 4

www.springfield-armory.com/download.php?asset=M1AManual.pdf

Ammunition

The M1A is designed and built to specifications to shoot standard factory military 7.62 NATO ammunition. The specifications for standard military ammunition include harder primers to withstand the slight indentation from the firing pin when the bolt chambers a cartridge. This slight indentation is normal. The use of civilian ammunition with more sensitive primers or hand loads with commercial primers and/or improperly seated primers increase the risk of primer detonation when the bolt slams forward. This unexpected "slam fire" can occur even if the trigger is not being pulled and if the safety is on. Use of military specification ammunition will help avoid this.

Every shooter should use extreme caution when loading this or any other firearm. See page 17 for instructions on proper loading to help avoid a "slam fire". Also see enclosed article on “Slam Fire” written by Wayne Faatz



There are important safety considerations when reloading for Garands, M1as, and M1 Carbines. All of these rifles are functionally similar in that they all have a free floating firing pin. The risk in all mechanisms with free floating firing pins is that incidental contact between the firing pin and primer can cause cartridge ignition, or a “slamfire”. You can search the web and every mechanism with a free floating firing pin has a posted slamfire incident. This includes AK47s, SKSs, French rifles, etc, etc, etc. The worst case slamfire is a slamfire that occurs out of battery, this will result in a catastrophic failure of the mechanism. The Garand mechanism has the most out of battery slamfires of any rifle on the market, and this is due to the lack of a positive mechanical firing pin lock or blocking device. All of the Garand based mechanisms share a firing pin retraction cam, this cam pulls the firing pin back during extraction. It also has limited utility as a safety device, because it blocks to a limited extent the firing pin going forward, but that only happens in the last 0.007” of movement. Long or tight rounds totally defeat the firing pin retraction’s cam ability to hold back the firing before cam down. Given an overly sensitive primer, one that will go off when struck by a rebounding firing pin, if you sized your round larger than the chamber, you will have created the highest risk conditions for an out of battery slamfire.

Only at final cam down is the firing pin retracted. Up to then the firing pin is totally free floating and tapping the heck out of the primer.

This is a M1 Carbine firing pin retraction cam.


DSCN1383FiringPinEngagingbridge.jpg

A M1 Garand firing pin retraction cam is functionally identical, just the carbine is easier to visually understand.

oob1b.jpg

Firing pins in this mechanism are free floating and the mechanism does not have a positive mechanical interlock to prevent incidental contact between the free floating firing pin and the primer. As can be seen here, that bolt has around three inches of travel before the firing pin tang touches the retraction cam.

DSCN1375.jpg

This is a M1 Garand receiver and the firing pin is fully forward and just touching the firing pin retraction cam. As you can see there is only thousand's of an inch of forward movement left in bolt cam down and yet the firing pin is out about 0.064" of the bolt face.


ReducedSCN6746HRReceivershowingbrid.jpg


It turns out that cam down is the point at which out of battery slamfires occur. It makes sense that it is here because the bolt will be at its highest forward velocity and yet, it has to de accelerate to go into battery. The firing pin , of course, has the same velocity of the bolt, but on cam down when the bolt stops, it continues to move forward and it will rebound off the primer. If the bolt has to stop to crunch fit a long or fat case, that firing pin is rebounding off the back of the primer and this is happening when the lugs are not engaged.

That is why it is best practice to small base size cases used in these rifles and to set up the dies with a case gage and size to gage minimum. (Assuming you don’t know the headspace of your chamber, if you do, always be 0.002 to 0.003” less) You want the bolt to close without resistance. This will reduce the risk of an out of battery slamfire assuming an overly sensitive primer. You can still have an inbattery slamfire given an overly sensitive primer, an undesirable event, but an inbattery slamfire is less likely to blow off the back of your receiver, blow the bolt face off, rip off the elevation knob, and split the stock in two.

ReducedWilsongagemeasuringnew308bra.jpg


If you attempt to small base size with a spray on lube you will stick the case in the die. I recommend RCBS water soluble or Imperial Sizing wax. These are excellent lubes.


For these rifles it is good practice to ensure ream primer pockets to depth, seat the primers by hand, and verify that all of the primers are below the primer pocket. There is a chance that a cocked primer, with the anvil firmly seated on something, could ignite when hit by the bolt fact. Clean those pockets! High primers are one of the most common cause of misfires because the primer won't fire unless the anvil is seated and is pushed up into the primer cake. http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/ However, given a shallow pocket, given debris in the pocket, it is possible that high a primer could be ignited by the bolt face.


After seating primers examine the back of the case and see if there are high or cocked primers.

It is also safety critical to use the least sensitive primer around because these rifles will slamfire in battery or worse, out of battery, given a sensitive enough primer.

Federal primers are the most sensitive primer on the market and the most "slamfiring" primer in Garands. I have lots of web accounts of slamfires with Federal primers. Don’t use them. I recommend CCI #34s and Tula7.62 primers as they considered "Mil Spec" primers. Which means they are less sensitive than commercial primers, federal are the most sensitive commercial primer on the market

Slamfires are a low probability event, but they do happen. I have a paper copy of this document :
Comparison Test of Rifles 7.62 mm, M14, Manufactured by Springfield Armory and Harrington and Richardson Arms Company, July 1963 . This has the only credible data that I have ever seen which can be used in estimating out of battery slamfire probabilities. In this test six new M14’s were undergoing various tests. Each was to be fired 6000 rounds each. One Springfield Arsenal M14 slamfired out of battery at round 5271. Based on this, I estimate that the probability of a slamfire with military spec primers is 1:35,000 per round fired. The slamfire risk with more sensitive commercial primers would be higher.

This was an interesting slamfire and it was with a military M14.

Help me figure out if this is a slam fire or bad loading. KABOOM!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=767168&highlight=m14

A summary of the event is that the shooter used new, unfired brass and primed the cases with CCI Benchrest primers. All "match" or "benchrest" primers are too sensitive for this mechanism. His rifle slamfired during cam down. You can see the damage to the rifle and a video link. He was lucky, there was partial lug engagement, if the primer had gone off out of battery, and the bolt blown the back of the receiver off, he might have lost a $20,000 dollar rifle.

When firing single shot, use a SLED. Do not put a round in the chamber and drop the bolt. Lots of inbattery slamfires, and a few out of battery, have happened because of this. You want to slow the bolt down. When rounds feed from the clip the friction between cartridges slows the bolt a bit. You want to use a SLED as that slows the bolt a bit.

If loading a Garand without a SLED, lower the bolt about 1” over the follower and let go. Always get your hand out of the way so that if the mechanism slamfires the operating rod does not cut through the palm of your hand.


IMG_3279Boltoneinchforwardofbackfollower_zps1ec72907.jpg

My advice for case preparation for Garands/M1 as to

1. Set up dies with a case gage.

2. Full length resize in a small base die

3. Trim cases

4. Clean primer pockets, ream to depth

5. Prime all cases by hand, verify that all primers are below the case head, and use the least sensitive primers you can find.



If you can’t find CCI #34 or Tula7.62 primers then you have to use primers of commercial sensitivity and the risk of a slamfire increases, but I don’t know how much. I do not recommend Federals in this mechanism, I don’t recommend the new brass colored WLR, CCI 200 seems to have a harder cup than other commercial primers, I have never tried Remington primers and have no opinion. I have conducted my own primer tests to see what happened over the chronograph, personally I am a fan of the Russian primers, they shoot very well.

A source for the old NRA recommended loads, for bullet weights other than 168 or 174 can be found here. http://masterpostemple.bravepages.com/M1load.htm I load my 150’s with 47.5 grains IMR 4895 instead of a max recommendation of 49 grains. I have chronographed and tested all my loads, a 150 SMK with 47.5 grains IMR 4895 is moving just at 2725 fps, and that is as fast as I want a 150 grain bullet to go in this mechanism, regardless of what someone else may say.

Check cartridges for case head separation. Gas guns are hard on brass: the bolt unlocks while there is still significant chamber pressure. Because of this the case gets stretched on extraction. Carefully inspect cases for stretch ring marks at five reloads. They occur about .4” of an inch ahead of the base. You can verify if the cases are internally necking by inserting a bent paperclip in the case, and feeling for an edge.


DSCN1965editedCKfivetimesreloadedandrangepickup.jpg

The Italians added a firing pin spring to their BM59’s, obviously to reduce their slamfire rate. Because I am concerned about slamfires, I had two out of battery slamfires with Federal Match primers, I sent the bolt of my match Garand to Roland Beaver to install a similar spring.


DSCN2283M1BoltRolandBeaver_zps45f1cf3c.jpg

Roland charged me $25.00 total, I shipped it on a Monday, received the bolt back next Monday.

This has not eliminated firing pin indentations in my Garand. As a worse case test, I placed these rounds in the chamber, pointed the muzzle at the ground, and tripped the bolt release. Even with a firing pin spring, these primers were dented.


IMG_2565FiringpinindentationsafterRolandBeaverMod_zps75a0152f.jpg



IMG_2566FiringpinindentationsafterRolandBeaverMod_zps6542564b.jpg

I “believe”, “hope”, and “pray”, that the spring is reducing the kinetic impact energy of the firing pin, but without instrumentation, I don’t know. It should, but I don’t trust it enough to use Federals or any of the other “more sensitive” primers in my Garand


References:
a. The Mysterious Slam-Fire, American Rifleman, Oct 1983
b. Reloading for the M1 Rifle, American Rifleman, Mar 1986
 
Thanks. Can you clarify this, please?

Given an overly sensitive primer, one that will go off when struck by a rebounding firing pin, if you sized your round smaller than the chamber the odds would will be in your favor to have an in battery slamfire.

Should it read, "EVEN if you sized your round smaller than the chamber..."?

Or am I misreading this? Surely you're not saying that sizing the round smaller than the chamber is a bad thing...
 
Thanks. Can you clarify this, please?


Given an overly sensitive primer, one that will go off when struck by a rebounding firing pin, if you sized your round smaller than the chamber the odds would will be in your favor to have an in battery slamfire
.

Should it read, "EVEN if you sized your round smaller than the chamber..."?

Or am I misreading this? Surely you're not saying that sizing the round smaller than the chamber is a bad thing...

Sorry if it was confusing, one problem with writing, it makes sense to me, even if it does not make sense.

A round smaller than the chamber is a good thing and the desirable thing. You want the bolt to close without any resistance . Under no circumstances do you want an interference fit between cartridge and chamber. Therefore practices like neck sizing, partial neck sizing, are anathema in this action. Setting up sizing dies with a case gage, so the shoulder to base distance of the case is less than the shoulder to base dimension of the chamber, is a safety critical operation.

But, you can still do everything right, size correctly, use the proper primers, seat them below the case head, and still have a slamfire. You can buy primers that are on the average less sensitive, but it is very possible to get an overly sensitive primer even if it came out of a mil spec primer package. So every practice I have mentioned is a way of mitigating damage or ignition probability when a firing pin rebounds off a sensitive primer.

I don’t know if that is better, or if I made it worse!.
 
Sir, as the OP, I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to post that. It should be a sticky on any Handloading forum, especially one that has a number of Garand handloaders as members.

It reinforces a few of the procedures I already use in loading 5.56 and 300 BLK such as setting up my sizing die using a case gauge and checking every primer for seating depth. I also use a Sheridan slotted gauge for those calibers since it gauges to minimum chamber spec, and I'll definitely buy one for this as well.

Your post also definitively answered my original question about which primer to use. I use mil-spec in my other calibers and will certainly do so with this one.

I don't currently use a small base sizing die. I use Lee dies which I like, but I also don't reform my own 300 BLK cases, otherwise I would. The Lee sizing die works well for subsequent sizing of 300 and also for 5.56, but after reading this I think I'll get a set of RCBS small base dies which I would assume are available for .30-06.

Lastly, I've been handloading for a few years now and your post definitely gave me pause thinking about whether I want to do this being a completely ignorant newbie to the Garand, but I'm obsessive (to a fault) in my handloading and I've had far more issues with commercial ammo than I've ever had with my handloaded ammo. I've never used surplus ammo in my AR's, but I'm assuming you can run into some bad surplus Garand ammo as well so I'm definitely going to move forward with it once I develop a little familiarity with the Garand and its ammo.

Thanks again and if anything I've said sounds like the wrong approach, please let me know.
 
Lastly, I've been handloading for a few years now and your post definitely gave me pause thinking about whether I want to do this being a completely ignorant newbie to the Garand, but I'm obsessive (to a fault) in my handloading and I've had far more issues with commercial ammo than I've ever had with my handloaded ammo. I've never used surplus ammo in my AR's, but I'm assuming you can run into some bad surplus Garand ammo as well so I'm definitely going to move forward with it once I develop a little familiarity with the Garand and its ammo.

Chances of a slamfire are small, but the negative consequences are high. So you have to balance out the composite risk in your favor. For safety's sake, you must pay more attention to Garand ammunition reloading practices than for any other type of mechanism. But, if you size the case below chamber dimensions, use the right primers, and load with a SLED, the chances of anything bad happening are very small.

So, get a case gage, set up your dies, hand prime, and go shoot.
 
When you mentioned loading with a SLED in your post, I wasn't sure what you were referring to and I'm still not. The only SLED in familiar with is a Lead Sled which I don't use and really don't have any intention of using. I've never loaded a round in my semi-autos single round directly into the chamber unless I let the bolt slowly ride halfway forward before releasing it.
 
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