00 Buck SD/HD Ammo Help
- Thread starter cbrgator
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oneounceload
member
Nobel makes decent regular ammunition, so I'll assume this is pretty decent as well.....
I bought a case of it right before the election when it was even cheaper, but by today's prices/availability it is still a great deal.
I've put about 100-120 rounds of it through my FN SLP without any failure as well as another 30-40 through an 870, a Stoeger Coach gun and a Mossberg 500 with the same results.
I would buy it again without hesitation
I've put about 100-120 rounds of it through my FN SLP without any failure as well as another 30-40 through an 870, a Stoeger Coach gun and a Mossberg 500 with the same results.
I would buy it again without hesitation
SnakeLogan
Member
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- May 4, 2008
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I have no experience with this brand, but Winchester and Remington 12 pellet 00 is my HD choice.
Youngster
Member
Nothing wrong with S&B, it's decent for cheap buckshot.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
As a rule, you'll find that most of the less expensive buckshot offerings (was that PC enough? 
) will yield open patterns. If you're looking for a 'wide pattern' in your application, that's all well and good. If you want all your pellets on a silhouette target at 25 yards, you're most likely going to have problems though.
Inexpensive buckshot loads usually feature:
-roll crimps with over-shot wads
-dead soft lead pellets
-unplated pellets
-no buffering/grex
-no protective shot cup
-less than protective wads between powder and shot (none of the more modern collapsing/cushioning plastic wad columns)
These things tend to contribute to the widest possible buckshot patterns due to damage/deformation of the pellets on their trip down the bore. They get flat spots from being crushed together upon firing and during their dwell time in the bore. These flat spots make them 'frisbee' off in all directions when they emerge from the muzzle. Even a tighter choke might not help- in fact, it can do the opposite and make things worse by causing even more deformation to the pellets.
It's also been my experience that some loads using a stiff over-shot card wad with roll crimps will have holes in their patterns as well. Is it interference from the over-shot wad? I don't know, some have said in the past it could be.
If open patterns are what you want, and you have trained and practiced sufficiently to use them effectively- none of this matters. But if you expect tight patterns from inexpensive buckshot loads fired through open chokes, you may be in for some disappointment.
Premium buckshot loads usually contain hard lead alloy plated pellets, well protected by buffering material between and around the pellets. They have the best possible wad columns to protect the pellets. They have star crimps.
And generally, they work very well at what they do- delivering tight patterns at longer ranges.
The difference it makes? IMHO, you might not have to switch to slugs as soon to get effective hits, or to confine your projectile impact to a single target. In other words, tight-patterning buckshot demands that you shoot better, but it also extends the range at which you can keep all your pellets on a designated target.
hth,
lpl
) will yield open patterns. If you're looking for a 'wide pattern' in your application, that's all well and good. If you want all your pellets on a silhouette target at 25 yards, you're most likely going to have problems though.Inexpensive buckshot loads usually feature:
-roll crimps with over-shot wads
-dead soft lead pellets
-unplated pellets
-no buffering/grex
-no protective shot cup
-less than protective wads between powder and shot (none of the more modern collapsing/cushioning plastic wad columns)
These things tend to contribute to the widest possible buckshot patterns due to damage/deformation of the pellets on their trip down the bore. They get flat spots from being crushed together upon firing and during their dwell time in the bore. These flat spots make them 'frisbee' off in all directions when they emerge from the muzzle. Even a tighter choke might not help- in fact, it can do the opposite and make things worse by causing even more deformation to the pellets.
It's also been my experience that some loads using a stiff over-shot card wad with roll crimps will have holes in their patterns as well. Is it interference from the over-shot wad? I don't know, some have said in the past it could be.
If open patterns are what you want, and you have trained and practiced sufficiently to use them effectively- none of this matters. But if you expect tight patterns from inexpensive buckshot loads fired through open chokes, you may be in for some disappointment.
Premium buckshot loads usually contain hard lead alloy plated pellets, well protected by buffering material between and around the pellets. They have the best possible wad columns to protect the pellets. They have star crimps.
And generally, they work very well at what they do- delivering tight patterns at longer ranges.
The difference it makes? IMHO, you might not have to switch to slugs as soon to get effective hits, or to confine your projectile impact to a single target. In other words, tight-patterning buckshot demands that you shoot better, but it also extends the range at which you can keep all your pellets on a designated target.
hth,
lpl
Thanks Lee, that was highly informative. Considering all of that information, do you think that those cheaper brands would be adequate as a HD gun to keep next to my bed in case someone breaks in? At distances I may engage a BG within the home, the wider pattern would, as it would seem to me, not really be a big issue. Is that an incorrect assumption?
kmrcstintn
Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2006
- Messages
- 1,236
if you are using a 'short' barrel with intercahngable chokes (like Remington's 20" or 21" turkey barrel) then inserting an imporoved cylinder choke will persuade the pattern to tighten up just a bit without overchoking the column which also causes a wide open pattern
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
That's a question you have to answer for yourself. Measure the furthest distance you'd have to shoot within your home (or on your property if you think you'd have to go outside), go to the range and set up some silhouette targets at that distance, load up your shotgun and fire some rounds to see how it patterns.
If the pattern spreads enough that you think you'd have problems with pellets missing a target at those distances, then consider upgrading to a more premium brand.
Lee brings up some really good points so it really depends on how deep you want to go in terms of the quality you expect.
People have defended their homes with everything from slugs to birdshot, doesn't mean either is best but they all work with varying degrees of success.
My opinion is that I will sacrifice a little quality to be able to run a lot of my chosen ammo in practice. IMO too many people practice with cheap bulk stuff then throw in one or two of their home defense load.
My testing with the Nobel stuff was very satisfying out to about 20 yards. But to look a little closer I disected some cartridges just for the heck of it.
I grabbed a #4 buck Nobel by mistake but it's still a decent comparison. The other shell is a Remington 00 managed recoil load.
Nobel:
Remington:
Observations:
The Remington has a shot cup, Grex and a star crimp, Nobel does not.
As for the lead, I cut both with my knife and they were equally difficult to cut into, neither would mark or dent with my fingernail. I cannot see an appreciable difference between the two. Of course my analysis is not scientific but having loaded thousands of rounds of lead for CAS I would say these are pretty close to the same hardness and both seem harder than hard cast bullets.
People have defended their homes with everything from slugs to birdshot, doesn't mean either is best but they all work with varying degrees of success.
My opinion is that I will sacrifice a little quality to be able to run a lot of my chosen ammo in practice. IMO too many people practice with cheap bulk stuff then throw in one or two of their home defense load.
My testing with the Nobel stuff was very satisfying out to about 20 yards. But to look a little closer I disected some cartridges just for the heck of it.
I grabbed a #4 buck Nobel by mistake but it's still a decent comparison. The other shell is a Remington 00 managed recoil load.
Nobel:
Remington:
Observations:
The Remington has a shot cup, Grex and a star crimp, Nobel does not.
As for the lead, I cut both with my knife and they were equally difficult to cut into, neither would mark or dent with my fingernail. I cannot see an appreciable difference between the two. Of course my analysis is not scientific but having loaded thousands of rounds of lead for CAS I would say these are pretty close to the same hardness and both seem harder than hard cast bullets.
huntsman
Member
Is 8 pellet standard in that load?
I think 9 is the standard in 2 3/4" 00 buck.
Being managed recoil loads they probably dropped a pellet to reduce the weight during load development.
Winchester has a load out that has twelve 00 pellets in a 2 3/4" shell that looks pretty impressive, but pricey.
ETA: Yes, 8 pellet is standard in this particular load AFAIK.
Being managed recoil loads they probably dropped a pellet to reduce the weight during load development.
Winchester has a load out that has twelve 00 pellets in a 2 3/4" shell that looks pretty impressive, but pricey.
ETA: Yes, 8 pellet is standard in this particular load AFAIK.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
cbrgator,
Those are all very good questions. I wish I had equally good answers for you. As Justin basically said earlier, about the best I can do is to say "it depends."
My favorite 00 buck load from years gone by was from Estate (see the thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=73967 for more), and used to cost less than $3 for a box of ten, back in the days before the company was bought out by Blount and then absorbed by Alliant. I have no objection to buying ammo based on price, as long as reliability and performance are not compromised by the manufacturer. I like KO slugs, for example, and those used to go for less than $2 per box of five. I like inexpensive ammo, when it's reliable and performs well. Price isn't always a reliable indicator of quality. And it always pays to shop around.
IMHO if you can keep a full pattern on a sheet of notebook paper or thereabouts (hold a sheet up to your chest for a size comparison) at the ranges you need to be shooting, your barrel/choke/load combination are doing all you need them to do with defensive buckshot loads. If you start losing pellets off a sheet of notebook paper, then IMHO things need to tighten up some. Adding a bit of choke might help, or switching buckshot might be necessary.
It ain't really rocket surgery IMHO. "Good enough" is just fine. The cheaper the ammo, the more likely a shooter is to practice with it (BA/UU/R), and more practice is better. Fresh ammo in the gun is better, too, especially where tubular magazines are concerned.
If the ammo goes 'boom' every time you pull the trigger, if it runs in the gun reliably, if it patterns adequately to meet your needs, that's all you need. And if it doesn't cost an arm and leg in the process, so much the better.
Stay Safe,
lpl
Those are all very good questions. I wish I had equally good answers for you
. As Justin basically said earlier, about the best I can do is to say "it depends." My favorite 00 buck load from years gone by was from Estate (see the thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=73967 for more), and used to cost less than $3 for a box of ten, back in the days before the company was bought out by Blount and then absorbed by Alliant. I have no objection to buying ammo based on price, as long as reliability and performance are not compromised by the manufacturer. I like KO slugs, for example, and those used to go for less than $2 per box of five. I like inexpensive ammo, when it's reliable and performs well. Price isn't always a reliable indicator of quality. And it always pays to shop around.
IMHO if you can keep a full pattern on a sheet of notebook paper or thereabouts (hold a sheet up to your chest for a size comparison) at the ranges you need to be shooting, your barrel/choke/load combination are doing all you need them to do with defensive buckshot loads. If you start losing pellets off a sheet of notebook paper, then IMHO things need to tighten up some. Adding a bit of choke might help, or switching buckshot might be necessary.
It ain't really rocket surgery IMHO. "Good enough" is just fine. The cheaper the ammo, the more likely a shooter is to practice with it (BA/UU/R), and more practice is better. Fresh ammo in the gun is better, too, especially where tubular magazines are concerned.
If the ammo goes 'boom' every time you pull the trigger, if it runs in the gun reliably, if it patterns adequately to meet your needs, that's all you need. And if it doesn't cost an arm and leg in the process, so much the better.
Stay Safe,
lpl
wnycollector
Member
I have put the following "value" brands Fiocchi, S&B, Rio, Wolf and Nobel through my Cyl. bore 20" maverick 88. The two best (tightest with adequate coverage) in my gun, at 12 yards were Fiocchi low recoil 00 and nobel sport #4.
mgkdrgn
Member
I've got a bunch of it ...goes BANG and patterns right nicely out of my 870.
Butcha know, at SD ranges (ie, 20 feet or less), the BG on the business end of the barrel isn't going to know the difference between Remington, Winchester, Federal, Wolf, Estate, Kmart .... as long as it goes BANG when you pull the trigger.
Butcha know, at SD ranges (ie, 20 feet or less), the BG on the business end of the barrel isn't going to know the difference between Remington, Winchester, Federal, Wolf, Estate, Kmart .... as long as it goes BANG when you pull the trigger.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
At usual across-the-room ranges, #4 buck should do just as well if not better (more projectiles, more wound tracks) than 00 for defensive use. We use 00 because ranges encountered here might be longer than across the room- our 'house guns' are really 'farm guns.'
lpl
lpl
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