1/4 cock on SAA -- how safe?

[ArmedBear]

I know that the conventional wisdom is to load 5 if the gun will be holstered. And you can't accidentally fire an empty chamber, it's true.

But what if the gun is sitting in a pistol safe?

That 1/4 cock position seems pretty solid if the gun doesn't fall down a hillside or something.

Is it really a problem to have the gun on 1/4 cock with 6 rounds in it?

 

[dfariswheel]

It's really not safe under any circumstances.

The hammer notches and the trigger's sear surface are thin and not too durable.
Any good bump, including an inadvertent bump on the side of a safe has a real potential to break or force the "safety" notch and fire the gun.

About the only time it's safe to load six in a traditional single action is while on the range actually shooting.

 

[Old Fuff]

Plus-One with dfariswheel.

Experienced shooters never carry the hammer aligned with a loaded chamber, either all of the way down, or in the quarter-cock notch.

A light blow will crack off the tip of the trigger, leaving the hammer free to go all of the way. As a rule, if you drop the gun it will land on the hammer spur with that muzzle pointed upward toward who ever dropped it.

If you must load all six chambers buy one of the newer models that have a transfer bar safety.

 

[DaltonSpringfield]

Not safe at all.

In a colt SAA or clone, even with a transfer bar, it's not a wise idea to leave the hammer at 1/4 cock and it sure isn't smart to leave the hammer down on a live primer. The transfer bar is safer than the non-transfer bar style, but still too much chance of a major malfunction for my comfort.


I understand you have some desire to shoot SASS. Here's my 2 cents. Buy another SAA or clone, Load 5 in each if they need to be loaded at home for defense. Then, unload all 10 rounds, pack the whole lot legaly in your car and go to a cowboy action shoot. If you happen to have a double barrel shotgun and/or a lever action rifle in pistol caliber, bring them too, if not don't worry, just ask the RO to lend you what you need for the first shoot.

Hope to see you at a shoot someday.

Dalton

 

[ArmedBear]

Thanks, all!

Yeah, that makes sense. The sear is a skinny little thing.

I don't mind loading 5, and I have another gun or two. I was just wondering about it, since I had been loading 5.

 

[shooter71]

another learning exp for me on the SAA firearm..i never really thought about the hammer being all the way forward it would be unsafe..now really thinking about it the firing pin has to touch something to fire..so even if its not cocked its touching a live primer when all the way forward..glad there are forums to read stuff on..im a semi auto man ..dont own a revolver of any kind and wanted a SAA , the SASS stuff intrigues me..and what true red blooded american doesnt like the old west.

so even with the newer stuff like the vaquero and the beretta stampede and im assuming the ubertis since beretta owns them , even with the transfer bar its still prb the best thing to only load 5 if you plan on holstering one ..am i correct on this? is there any that can "really" be safely handled/carried with a full six rounds??

 

[miko]

Hmm. How about stuffing a piece of rubber under the hammer?

miko

 

[ArmedBear]

shooter71-

I have a Uberti Cattleman (also the basis for most Cimarron guns). The Uberti is a true SAA replica, with a firing pin on the hammer. Carry with the hammer down on an empty chamber. (Same goes for Piettas, USFA's, "real" Colt SAA's, and anything else built as a replica or reissue of the Colt Single Action Army).

The Vaquero and New Vaquero are based on the Ruger New Blackhawk action, which has a transfer bar safety not unlike a modern double-action revolver. Loading all 6 should be safe. CAS competition does not allow all 6 to be loaded, so that people with original-style pistols are not disadvantaged by newfangled guns that just LOOK like the old ones.

(Note that early Blackhawks had the firing pin on the frame, but no safety mechanism, so they had to be carried like an old SAA. However, they haven't been made that way for decades.)

Berettas are made by Uberti, but they have a safety that is similar to the Ruger's (I don't know how similar). They're not true Colt replicas. However, I can't comment on HOW safe they are to carry with the hammer down on a loaded chamber, other than they're a lot safer than the original SAA. Ditto for the Taurus Gaucho.

 

[shooter71]

thanks for the info Armedbear

do the vaqueros have the hammer mounted firing pin or frame mounted?

and do they have the 4 clicks when cocking? seems like i read at Rugers site that you didnt have to partially cock for loading either

i want to get a SAA and hopefully join a SASS club..i like the tradtional approach of course..but safety is a concern to

 

[ArmedBear]

New Vaqueros do not have the pin on the hammer. It's mounted in the frame, with a transfer bar safety so the firing pin is engaged only when the trigger is depressed. Picture a modern S&W, Ruger or similar Double Action, and you get the idea.

They also don't have 4 clicks. I don't think they have ANY, except for full cock. To load them, you just open the loading gate.

You can get a kit to give them a 1/4 and 1/2 cock, if you're so inclined.

If you want a good competition gun that's more "original", the Cimarron Evil Roy is about $600 from Buffalo Arms. http://www.buffaloarms.com/ It's ready to go.

My Uberti Cattleman was well under $300 with a matte finish -- I wanted a gun for the dirt and sand of our backcountry, not a showpiece -- but it felt like crap. $20 for a set of Wolff Springs and it feels like a dream. Light, smooth pull, easy, quick cocking. Never gave it the CAS beating, though, so I can't say how the action would stand up to a lot of destruction.

Otherwise, the Ruger is probably your best bet for a competition-ready gun out of the box, even if it's a bit "modern" under the hood. Note that most CAS competitors take their gun to a 'smith before they ever take it to the range. Rugers can stand up to CAS pretty well out of the box, so you save a lot of cash.

 

[shooter71]

no click..oh man thats the best part of a SAA lol

thats like a shotgun not having a .."click click" ..thats almost a sin

my choices have been the Ubertis, Berettas and Vaqueros . dont know much about the Pietta's other than i believe Charles Daly is an importer, and USFA is a tad pricey for me.. its gets confusing on who imports what products. EMF, Cimarron, Navy Arms etc
but for some reason im drawned to the Ubertis, could be because they have the best looking website and the free video is absolutely fabulous, and the price is nice. since uberti is owned by beretta are these guns the same interally? seems like i read that the Beretta has the transfer bar safety. ive read so much over the last few days im having a hard time processing all of it.

PS
Great site to Bear...i noticed they have a cimarron lightning chambered for the 32-20/32HR and 38spl..id like to have one of these to.

 

[Jim Watson]

The reason Ruger revolvers now have transfer bar actions and are safe to load six-up is that they were repeatedly and expensively sued by people who would not read the instructions and follow the procedures in place for about a hundred years on how to use a single action revolver.

You got two choices, tradition with five loaded, or modern with six shots and fewer clicks.
(Don't matter in SASS, you MUST have an empty chamber under the hammer no matter the action type. We once had a guy who tried the game with fancy five shot custom (his own make!) ultra magnum revolvers and was dismayed to find he could only load four cartridges.)

 

[Jim March]

If I recall right, the Beretta Stampede is a transfer bar gun WITH the clicks .

Yeah, my Ruger New Vaq will allow the loading gate to be opened with the hammer all the way down (and in no other position!). If you think about it, it's a faster system. You shoot the gun dry, open the gate, unload, reload, close gate, fully cock it for the next shot. You only touch the hammer once in that cycle, not twice as on the Colt.

Clicks be damned, I like my Ruger New Vaquero .

(Note: ALL Ruger Single Actions since 1973 work like this.)

 

[Cosmoline]

PLEASE REMEMBER. The so-called "SAA CLONES" made by Ruger are not SAA's. They are totally different inside, and if you have a new model Vaquero, Blackhawk, SBH or the like with the TBS you CAN load all six with perfect safety. There are no partial cocks on those, anyway, so the issue of leaving it on quarter cock shouldn't come up.

As far as the true SAA's and clones, the safe general rule is to have an empty under the hammer.

 

[dfariswheel]

"Hmm. How about stuffing a piece of rubber under the hammer?
miko".

Elmer Keith once used holsters for single actions that not only allowed him to carry fully loaded, but also kept the gun in the holster while on a nervous horse.

He cut a strip of leather that would fit into the hammer slot on the frame, and punched a hole in it for the firing pin to fit into.
He attached the other end to the holster.

To use, he'd insert the leather strip into the hammer slot, and carefully lower the hammer so the firing pin entered the hole in the leather.

This prevented the hammer from moving forward enough to fire the cartridge and held the gun in the holster.
To release it, all he had to do was cock the gun.

Still, you'd be fooling around with a fully loaded and cocked gun while getting it into the holster.
Same holds for a rubber washer or other device on a house gun.... you're fooling around with a loaded and cocked single action.

 

[Jim March]

Cosmoline: you're correct, BUT it should be noted that we now have three "levels" of SAA similarity:

* "True clones" have no safety and a hammer mounted firing pin. They are the same size and heft as a Colt SAA of the same caliber. Various Italian critters, USFAs and that new high-end American build beast...wazzitcalled again? The one by a noted maker of 1911s...

* "Near clones" may have different internals (New Vaq, Gaucho, Stampede) but externally they are close enough to a Colt SAA to have a similar feel and heft, and fit in the same holsters (perfectly).

* "Sorta SAA lookin'" includes the original Vaquero and the EAA Bounty Hunter, built on 44Mag-class frames.

My point is, I don't think it's fair any longer to lump all Ruger SAs into the "nowhere near the SAA" category. In terms of heft, balance, grip shape and size, the New Vaquero is now a "near clone" of the SAA.

 

[Cosmoline]

New Vaqueros fit SAA leather? I always thought they were too beefy.

 

[Sistema1927]

New Vaqueros fit SAA leather? I always thought they were too beefy.

You are thinking about the "Old New" Vaqueros (Or is that "New Old" Vaqueros? ). The "New New" Vaqueros are not as beefy. They also don't handle the "Ruger only" loads.