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You are correct here Driftwood, I was thinking of the Rangers and the Patterson. Oops!
Question on how the SAA was carried in the 19th century
- Thread starter RON in PA
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You are correct here Driftwood, I was thinking of the Rangers and the Patterson. Oops!
The danger was from dropping a handgun with a loaded chamber under the firing pin. Not just with the Colt SAA, but some other designs as well. Same reason it is not recommended to carry a 1911 with a loaded chamber and hammer down. It is much safer to leave the hammer back and safety on. At least with older traditional 1911's before drop safeties were added.
On horseback, with the holsters of the time, I'd imagine guns were dropped more often than we'd think. There is also the possibility of the rider falling or being thrown off and landing in a position that would let the gun fire while still in the holster. Most savvy shooters of the time left an empty chamber under the hammer unless the situation dictated loading the 6th. Modern guns with drop safeties and hammer blocks have largely eliminated the problem, but some guys still won't carry 6.
I don't know that the revolvers were issued, but Civil War cavalry on both sides commonly carried multiple fully loaded revolvers into battle. Having 5-6 loaded guns was common and in some cases as many as 10 have been recorded. They were carried on both their belts and strapped to the saddle horn for easy access. Many of those guys furnished their own private weapons and I'm sure it wasn't too hard to pick up stuff after a battle.
On horseback, with the holsters of the time, I'd imagine guns were dropped more often than we'd think. There is also the possibility of the rider falling or being thrown off and landing in a position that would let the gun fire while still in the holster. Most savvy shooters of the time left an empty chamber under the hammer unless the situation dictated loading the 6th. Modern guns with drop safeties and hammer blocks have largely eliminated the problem, but some guys still won't carry 6.
I don't know that the revolvers were issued, but Civil War cavalry on both sides commonly carried multiple fully loaded revolvers into battle. Having 5-6 loaded guns was common and in some cases as many as 10 have been recorded. They were carried on both their belts and strapped to the saddle horn for easy access. Many of those guys furnished their own private weapons and I'm sure it wasn't too hard to pick up stuff after a battle.
Mr Johnson
Dumb question. The photo of the ammunition in the box doesn’t show any sign of a centerfire primer. Are they some type of rimfire 45 Colt or are the primers not visible?
Dumb question. The photo of the ammunition in the box doesn’t show any sign of a centerfire primer. Are they some type of rimfire 45 Colt or are the primers not visible?
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Not a dumb question at all, in fact I was expecting somebody to ask.
The first version of the 45 Colt cartridge featured what was called Benet priming. Named after Col. S.V Benet who was commander of the Frankford Arsenal in the late 1860s. Benet priming was an early form of Centerfire priming. Benet primed cartridges had a folded rim copper case. Priming material was deposited inside the case at the bottom. A piece called the Anvil Plate was crimped inside at the bottom of the case, sandwiching the priming material between the Anvil Plate and the bottom of the case. When a firing pin struck the bottom of the case the priming compound was ignited by being squeezed between the bottom of the case and the Anvil Plate. This photo demonstrates the principle. The Anvil Plate had two flash holes that communicated the flash from the priming to the main charge of Black Powder, igniting the powder.
In this photo I have pulled out a few of the rounds to compare them to a modern 45 Colt. Yes, from the bottom they looked like a Rimfire, but they were not, they were Centerfire. Notice the telltale crimps at the bottom of the cases holding the Anvil Plate in position. You might also notice these were the 30 grain loads. The original 45 Colt cartridge is often described as containing 40 grains of Black Powder. In fact, even the old Balloon Head cases probably did not hold 40 grains, probably something more like 38 grains or so. The Benet Primed rounds had more interior capacity even than Balloon head rounds, so they were probably the only rounds that could actually hold 40 grains of powder. The 40 grain military loads recoiled too much in a revolver, so the government dialed back the military charge to 30 grains. There is probably cardboard wadding inside to take up the empty space, because Black Powder rounds must not contain any air space. No, I have not dissected any of these rounds to make sure. I want to keep the box complete.
Here is a photo of 45 Colt and 45 Schofield cartridges. The two cartridges in the center are Benet primed, the two on the outside are my modern reloads.
The early 45-70 cartridges were also Benet primed. The one on the left is a Benet primed 45-70. These were problematic in the Trapdoor rifles of the time, the extractor could rip through the soft copper rim, leaving the round jammed in the chamber.
Benet primed rounds could not be reloaded, they were like Rimfire rounds in that they could only be loaded and fired once. When modern Boxer priming appeared, Benet primed rounds quickly became obsolete. The brass Boxer primed 45-70 rounds were not as soft as the copper Benet rounds, so the problem of ripping through a rim with a Trapdoor went away.
While I'm on the subject, here is a comparison photo of a couple of cartridge cases I cut in half. On the left is a 45 Colt Balloon Head round, on the right is a modern 45 Colt Solid Head round. The difference in powder capacity is obvious. I have a box of empty 45 Colt Balloon Head cases, and one of these days I intend to load up some with Black Powder to see how much they will actually hold. In the meantime, my standard Black Powder load for 45 Colt in modern cases is about 35 grains of FFg under a 250 grain bullet. I could stuff more in, but I would be compressing the dickens out of it. There really is no need for more than 35 grains of FFg in a 45 Colt. It is a pretty stout load.
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LaneP
Member
I frequently load .45 Colt with black powder and 255 grain cast lead. I can't remember but I believe it was Mike Venturino that recommended charging the cases through a drop tube to maximize the fill potential of the case. So I have a 1/4" I.D., 3 foot long length of copper tube affixed to the loading bench for that purpose. At some point I should make a comparison of case volume taken up by a drop tube charge versus a case filled by scoop.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Yes, Mike used a drop tube for his 45s. I don't bother. Totally unnecessary for most applications. Mike also said that BP needed Magnum primers. Much as I respect Mike, he was wrong about that. Black Powder is easier to ignite than Smokeless and standard primers work fine.
The only time I use a drop tube is for my Black Powder 45-70s. A drop tube allows a bit more powder to fit in the case, but more importantly gravity packs the powder in better for a more consistent burn. Important for precision long range shooting. Not so much for pistol ammo.
The only time I use a drop tube is for my Black Powder 45-70s. A drop tube allows a bit more powder to fit in the case, but more importantly gravity packs the powder in better for a more consistent burn. Important for precision long range shooting. Not so much for pistol ammo.
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chicharrones
needs more ammo
Dang. Sure wish he'd tried a real $1 bill made out of cotton fiber instead of fake money made of plain paper. Not sure there'd be much difference, but it would've been interesting.
indy1919a4
Member
Dang. Sure wish he'd tried a real $1 bill made out of cotton fiber instead of fake money made of plain paper. Not sure there'd be much difference, but it would've been interesting.
To be fair the cotton fiber money like today would not be a good test because we are talking 1880s money. From some I have felt they are more paper then like today's money..
But what the heck I would not mind seeing that test to
To make a good test he would need to use one of those old brown back bills.. but that would be a pricey little test..
I have no way to prove it but I would bet more folks have shot themselves in the leg with old style single actions since about 1950 than in all the years up to then. I know three personally, one with a first gen SAA, two with old style three screw Rugers. One evidently had a branch brush the hammer back when walking though the brush, one had his horses stirrup fall on the hammer, and the third was carrying a box under his arm and when he bumped it up it came down on the hammer.
I believe the old timers were smart enough not to trust pins, notches, or the fragile safety notch on the hammer.
One of the more careless publications a couple years ago had an article poo pooing the carry five safely idea. Boy did they get flamed.
Read Sixguns, Hell, I Was There, or any book by the old timers and they reiterate the practice.
I believe the old timers were smart enough not to trust pins, notches, or the fragile safety notch on the hammer.
One of the more careless publications a couple years ago had an article poo pooing the carry five safely idea. Boy did they get flamed.
Read Sixguns, Hell, I Was There, or any book by the old timers and they reiterate the practice.
indy1919a4
Member
There are some of the wonderful gun facts of in the day that there is just not enough info about. Heck so often it takes hard work to even find out what were the actual firearms that the famous desperadoes and Law men were carrying. So often those facts are thin or non existent.
Per your comment we know of one guy Joe "Texas Red" Grant and he was carrying his pistol with 3 empty chambers back in 1880. We only know this because that's the night he went up against Billy the Kid.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
I'll tell you what.
Next spring when CAS season starts up again I will slip a twenty dollar bill into an empty chamber and shoot a couple of stages with my Black Powder 45s. I will take a photo of the bill and will post it here.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Thanks, Driftwood! But don't burn a $20! A one dollar bill sure costs less to experiment with.
Of course, if Jeff Quinn did this, he'd do it with a $100 bill.
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