#11 Cap Inury - Freak occurence?

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Got a question for the wise men here.

I built one of those Cabela's Hawken kits this winter (they were on sale, $200!) in percussion cap form. Up until today I've put about 30 rounds through it and everything has been honkey-dorey. I've been shooting 777 through it so far. All patched ball. I started around 50gr FFg and then have been moving things up. I think 70-75gr is my sweet spot, but I wanted to try to take it a little higher to see what that was all about. I believe the manual says I'm safe up to 90 or so.

So, today I worked it up to 90. On the second shot, after the big boom and more smoke than usual, I noticed my finger was hurting. Then, I noticed it was bleeding. A small cut, like something you might do if you'd slipped with a pocket knife. I checked to see if I could have slipped with my hand and hit a sharp object on the gun, but the sharpest thing there was the barrel retaining pin, and it's not that sharp.

It appears that what happened was that the percussion cap - or some shrapnel from it - flew forward and cut my ring finger. There was nothing embedded in the finger. This illustrates nicely to me why I should always wear safety goggles at the range - and yes, I had them on, though I was really only doing that because I was working up the load.

I loaded up again at 80 and I could have sworn I felt something hit my finger again, but maybe it was just that cut being disturbed from the recoil. I tend to think it wasn't though, and this was another projectile cap.

So is this an indication something is messed up? I have noticed that the hammer strikes the percussion cap on the bottom part of the hammer - not dead center. I didn't change their inletting, so I figured this was within tolerance. All the parts are mounted using factory inletting.

If this is a normal way for the hammer to meet the cap, are there aftermarket hammers out there that address these kind of problems? The little 1/16" lip on the hammer face is not cutting it for retention of the caps, clearly. They often are nowhere to be seen after I shoot. The only other thing I know of to do would be to switch to one of those rifle/shotgun primer conversion nipples that enclose the primer. I'd like to keep it simple, however.

Any suggestions you can offer to deal with this would be appreciated. It's not a big cut, but I know my eye would not have done as well as my finger if it had gone the other way.
 
Your cap misshap

I had something happen couple of years ago, about what happened to
you. First of all i don't know were your ring finger was cut. I don't
think the cap can curve under the rifle. Well anyway i have a traditions hawkens woodmen. I did the same thing, worked my way up with loads. When i got to about a 100. The rifle give a good kick.
Then my finger started to bleed. I thought it was the cap. So i did it again. Wow the pain, the little hook that you put your ring finger on. It is right under the main trigger guard, it bite me. Now that i'm down to 55 gr. No more problems. Some of the other guys might have a differant opinion. But my cut even had the curve of the little finger holder
 
777 can be pretty brutal on percussion caps. I still use the CCI #11 Mag caps on my old Knight in-line with 777 loads between 80 and 100gr and I often find the caps at least half gone when I pull back the bolt after firing.

Heck just shooting 30gr of 777 in my 1858 revolver mauls those caps pretty good too.

I have to say that when shooting a Hawkin with patched ball, 70 to 80gr of 777 is all you need or will even want to shoot - so you'll probably be just fine with that.
 
it was the left hand

I left this out - it was my left hand, and I am right-handed shooter. So if it really was the cap, it would have to have shot just about straight forward.

To be clear, this hammer has almost no skirt whatsoever one it. I am suspicious of that.

The 70 gr load does blow away caps sometimes, but certainly this has never happened.
 
If your rifle has a nipple drum instead of the snail ....you need to turn the drum so the face of the hammer meets the nipple flat ..not at an angle .
You`ve already seen the problem with it .....but you didn`t say which type you had .
\you did say it was a kit rifle ....fit and finish is something you are expected to do with the kits ..
If your rifle barrel has the snail instead of the round drum the nipple screws into...you may have to bend the hammer to make it contact the nipple flat .
 
arcticap - That _is_ genius. That's exactly what I was thinking of, though I was thinking about a skirt on the hammer, like I've seen on nicer locks. What you linked to there is a much easier way to do it.

sundance44s - I did lots of fit & finish, both in metal and wood. I guess I am more concerned I fit it wrong. You're pointing out some possible adjustments I didn't realize I could make. I'm not sure if it's drum-type or snail-type exactly, but it looks more like a drum to me. I'll double-check the manual and see if there's a possibility of adjustment I missed. As far as bending the hammer...yeah, I was afraid somebody might say that! I can't say for sure, but it looks like it might be cast. I'm pretty sure bending cast iron is breaking cast iron...

Overall it sounds like most of you posting are saying or implying this isn't something I should just tolerate, so I will definitely invest some time in sorting it out. Thanks all.
 
Keep in mind that 777 is about 15% hotter than an equivalent volume of black powder. So power-wise, a 90 grain charge of 777 is equal to about 103.5 grains of regular black powder. If the gun is rated at 90 grains max you may want to back down your max charge of triple seven to more like 80 grains to be safe.
 
The nipple drum type are round and cylinder shaped they screw into a threaded hole in the side of the barrel........the snail type look more like a snails shell and are made into the breech part of the barrel ..and not moveable .......( thus the hammer would have to be bent to adjust ) the strikeing position.
It can be done with out breaking the hammer ..needs to be done off the lock though in a vise ...If you can post a pic I`ll tell you which type you have ..so post a link to the kit you have will work also .
 
It's this kit:

http://www.cabelas.com/hprod-1/0006567.shtml

That page seems to have the best pictures of it I could find. Based on your description, and some other pictures I've seen, this is more of the "snail" type, though it's not that attractive. It is fixed on the breech.

I figured any work on the hammer would have to be done off the lock - especially with a torch! Any tips on getting the hammer off? I couldn't do it. Maybe if I removed the entire lock assembly, I would be able to jig something up to punch the hammer shaft out of the hammer and separate the two.
 
Yep you have the snail type ...I`ve had one of these rifles ...good shooters ...I beleive they are made by Investarms ...
The lock and triggers are Italian copys of Thompson parts .
Heating the hammer isn`t necessary
just take the lock off the rifle and remove the screw that holds the hammer to the post and use a flat head screw driver that will fit under it and use some duct tape or something to protect the lock face from scratching it ...just move around under the hammer with the screwdriver gently prying up on it , not to much at a time on one side so it doesn`t bind comming off the post . It should come off easy being fairly new ..
Always put the hammer on half cock and set the rear trigger before takeing the lock out ...it will be much easyer to reinstall that way .
Once you get the hammer off the lock just put the hammer in a padded vise clamped in by the lower part of the hammer so the upper part will be flexable ..if you use heat you could ruin the temper of the hardened steel , so it`s best not to if you don`t need to make a big adjustments ..your bend should only be a few thousands of an inch to get the hammer face flush with the nipple face ....you may have to slip it back together several times before you get it right but try not to over do your first bend ...and it shouldn`t take much at all ....normally this is just a minor adjustment .....something else to deal with on the kit guns ...
 
Yep, Investarms is right. I chose that kit for the exact reason you mentioned: the lock seemed of pretty good quality for a budget kit. Most others I found in that range featured a "hunting trigger." I love the double trigger. I had also heard all kinds of good things about the Investarms rifles, so I figured it was a safe bet.

I will try the technique you are talking about. I was concerned about making the hammer brittle or something with too much heat...hopefully I can do what you're talking about without scratching it up too much.

For now, I have embraced my knack for redneck engineering and fashioned a flash cup out of heavily cut down & modified 9mm brass...it's a little kludgey but it looks like it will contain an errant cap pretty well.
 
I'm glad that you've contructed your own flash cup.
It's possible that adjusting the hammer isn't really necessary.
As already mentioned, the sharpnel could also be partially attributable to the amount of 777, the size of the nipple orafice or even the brand of caps.
Rather than bending the hammer repeatedly using trial and error, why not file the top of the nipple down slightly to meet the angle of the hammer? And that's only if the other suggested changes don't work.
Also, if a replacement nipple did have a smaller orafice then that might prevent some blowback too.
For instance, I have a gun where the nipple orafice is so open that shooting 90 - 100 grains of powder will cause the hammer to actually reset from the blowback.
Over time the nipple might wear down to the proper angle by itself.
I'd hate to see the hammer or lock get damaged accidently. That may be the right fix, but maybe that should only be done as a last resort. :)
 
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True ...there is a chance you may have to buy a new hammer if you break the one ....but look at the bright side ...hammers are alot cheaper than doctor bills .
not to mention the damage it is going to do to the hammer face and the nipple .....if it wasn`t a kit you`d probally send it back .
Propper alignment of the parts is just part of building a rifle .
 
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