12 dead, 14 arrested in huge shoot-out in South Africa

[Preacherman]

Tory, take a chill pill. This thread is NOT a debating forum about semantics. If you want to debate that subject, please start another thread that is dedicated to the subject, rather than hi-jack this thread.

 

[carterbeauford]

...so you would advise against moving to South Africa?

 

[AndyC]

Having moved to Texas from South Africa a year ago - yes

 

[roscoe]

Is it better now that a once prosperous society has descended into barbarity and butchery?

Is it better now that the Gangsters are in charge and the organised criminals operate most of the organs of state?

Look at Zimbabwe if you want a snapshot of what South Africa will look like soon. It is not a question of IF. It is WHEN.

It was a corrupt, oligarchic, racist, oppressive system before.
It is a chaotic, corrupt system now.

Pick your poison.
No one is saying it is good, but to defend the old regime - well, that is a reach. It was no garden of eden.

Will it become Zimbabwe? Maybe, but it is not inevitable. They lack anyone remotely like Mugabe, and don't have a military like Zimbabwes, that is beholden to a dictator. Even Zimbabwe was a decent place before he went nuts.

Certainly SA is not degrading in a linear fashion. Five to seven years ago, Johhanesberg was much worse than it is today.

 

[HankB]

No one is saying it is good, but to defend the old regime - well, that is a reach. It was no garden of eden.

The old analogy about a frying pan and the fire comes to mind . . . and note that RSA under the old racist apartheid regime, for all it's faults, still experienced a net positive flow of immigrants from surrounding "majority rule" nations.

It says a lot more about relative conditions than anything that can be said on this board when people vote with their feet that way.

 

[roscoe]

SA still a serious inflow of immigrants. In fact, they have an immigration problem.

 

[Tory]

Finish the analysis.........

SA still a serious inflow of immigrants. In fact, they have an immigration problem.

YES; refuges from that paragon of self-determination, Zimbabwe.

When caucasians begin emigrating to South Africa, I'll be impressed.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

In Britain and Australia there are already enclaves of former SA white folk. Also, they are spread out through America, although i noticed quite a few in Texas in comparison to other areas.

What I'm surprised at is that the Indians and bi-racial folks are still there. This is really a tribal war. (Back when it was the Afrikaners it was tribal, it's just that the dominant tribe happened to have fair skin). The Xhousa controlled ANC is now beginning to give all the non-blacks problems.

Won't be long until civil war.

I'd bet that most of the whites have learned their mistakes, or weren't a party to apartheid (that are younger), and since they are about to be wiped out, I think it wouldn't be horrible to offer asylum.

We've done it for Somali, and Sudanese refugees, we shouldn't turn the Afrikaners away for their skin colour. Amnesty to all those 30 and younger? What do you think?

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Will it become Zimbabwe? Maybe, but it is not inevitable. They lack anyone remotely like Mugabe, and don't have a military like Zimbabwes, that is beholden to a dictator. Even Zimbabwe was a decent place before he went nuts.

Mr. Mugabe didn't "go nuts". He reverted to type. He was a hoodlum and a gangster before he took power. It took a good fifteen years for the organs of state to default into the hands of the gangsters to such a degree as to facilitate the ultimate fruition of his original designs.

You might say that Idi Amin wasn't "nuts" at first. I would propose that he was the man he was going to be from an early age. He only lacked the opportunity to express himself fully. The better he entrenched himself, the more fully he could enlighten the world with his political phylosophy.

Like most "communist" rulers, Mugabe is a thug and bully FIRST. The closer he gets to absolute power, the more he will steal from, rape and murder his subjects.

As for the RSA lacking anyone like Mugabe, you are wrong sir. Winnie Mandella comes to mind. That Paragon of Virtue had her minions murder her political opponents by "necklacing" them. There are plenty of murderous thugs in the ANC. They are only awaiting their opportunity to "govern".

If you ever read the Ada Parker newsletter, you would know that in the late 90's white South African farmers were being murdered at the rate of about 1000 a year.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Actually, Thabo Mbeki is such a man. Earlier, I saw it posted both that White Europeans should never have gone to subsaharan Africa. I also saw posted that the way in which apartheid was dismantled is the problem.

If you studied SA history, you would know the Dutch were refugees. They were seeking a new land bc they couldn't practice their religion in the Netherlands. (same with the few French Heugenots). I would contend that Apartheid could not have come apart any other way.

Where the Boers erred is that their close-minded racism kept them from ever allying themselves to any black tribal group as equals. Had they combined with the Zulus (many of whom would later become Christian, like the Dutch), they wouldn't be having these problems. Granted, then they would be tannish and brown instead of lily white, and the racist Boers just couldn't have that.