12gauge or AR
- Thread starter Rob96
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Bigjake
Member
Shotgun
how many times do you hear about a 12 gauge jamming just because its getting shot alot...?
how many times do you hear about a 12 gauge jamming just because its getting shot alot...?
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
Shottie. The distances to shoot in urban SHTF are far better served with shottie. Slugs travel well. Good spread on buck shot. 31/2 mag BB loads really get out there.
Think about this. The mob is converging on your position.
Would you rather the mob see some fall with .223 wounds, or would you rather them see the gore from a 12 gauge slug ripping through somebody, or being disemboweled with buckshot at 50 yards. I think that the brute force and the gore, not to mention the noise, will drive the mob to easier pickin's.
And as Ala Dan said, it would be nice to get more than one at a time
Think about this. The mob is converging on your position.
Would you rather the mob see some fall with .223 wounds, or would you rather them see the gore from a 12 gauge slug ripping through somebody, or being disemboweled with buckshot at 50 yards. I think that the brute force and the gore, not to mention the noise, will drive the mob to easier pickin's.
And as Ala Dan said, it would be nice to get more than one at a time
Bigjake
Member
besides, the shotgun is the uber-deathray that kills any known thing with just a glancing blow...
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SodaPop
member
AR
Keep them as far away as possible. If they get too close its time for the RAAATTTTAATTATTATTTTT and then slap in another mag and RATATTATATATATTATATATTATATATATAT and then slap in another mag and............
Keep them as far away as possible. If they get too close its time for the RAAATTTTAATTATTATTTTT and then slap in another mag and RATATTATATATATTATATATTATATATATAT and then slap in another mag and............
Wife: "Hey guys, I'm going shopping for lunch next week. I only have enough money for a pound of meat this week. Want pork or beef?"
Husband: "Well, what are we going to be doing next week? Are we going to that barbaque or staying at home? Pork is better for at-home cooking, but beef is better for a barbaque. Without more information I simply can't decide."
Wife: "Uhhhh, ok..."
Son:"Well, for the price of a pound of pork or beef you could get 50 hot dogs and buns. Plus, we already have some buns so you save some money right there."
Wife:"Well, I still kind of want to get some beef or pork..."
Daughter:"Why are we even eating meat anyway? Why aren't we out excersizing right now? Get us some lean chicken or some vegetables with that money!"
Sound familiar?
Husband: "Well, what are we going to be doing next week? Are we going to that barbaque or staying at home? Pork is better for at-home cooking, but beef is better for a barbaque. Without more information I simply can't decide."
Wife: "Uhhhh, ok..."
Son:"Well, for the price of a pound of pork or beef you could get 50 hot dogs and buns. Plus, we already have some buns so you save some money right there."
Wife:"Well, I still kind of want to get some beef or pork..."
Daughter:"Why are we even eating meat anyway? Why aren't we out excersizing right now? Get us some lean chicken or some vegetables with that money!"
Sound familiar?
had the options been:12 gauge shotty or .223 shorty rifle...
I would have gone with the carbine.
But ar-15 is seriously limiting my options with a system that has proven itself to be wholly unreliable to me.
I'd go with a HK 53 or AK .223 with no problem. just keep yer derned ar-15s away from me!
I would have gone with the carbine.
But ar-15 is seriously limiting my options with a system that has proven itself to be wholly unreliable to me.
I'd go with a HK 53 or AK .223 with no problem. just keep yer derned ar-15s away from me!
Nightcrawler
Member
So the situation here is that you're defending a fixed position from hoardes of fierce barbarian warriors?
In that case, I'll take an M2 Browning, with an A-gunner, and plenty of API, with a FAL for me (with bipod and lots of mags) and whatever weapon my A-gunner preferred for himeself.
In that case, I'll take an M2 Browning, with an A-gunner, and plenty of API, with a FAL for me (with bipod and lots of mags) and whatever weapon my A-gunner preferred for himeself.
Black Majik
Member
Reality: 12 ga. shotgun. No AR's in California
Make Believe/Pretend : AR-15!
I want an AR SOOO BAD!
Make Believe/Pretend
: AR-15! I want an AR SOOO BAD!
Not without a source it doesn't. Plus there it isn't clear, by automatic weapons is the source referring to full auto? If so subguns, MBRs, AW, SAWs what? Does the "quote" also mean that everyone that was "hit" by a single pellet was killed? It sounds like something someone heard from someone who used to be a cop or...maybe a seal/ranger/ninja.
Smoke
Member
Boats said:
Come now sir, you can't be serious?
Rural folks have long dealt with the reality of poor to no utility service.
When the power goes, who do you think gets their's restored first? It ain't the guys in the sticks. Ever had your water freeze up for two weeks in town?
Many rural co-operatives in the power business are not exactly reliable. Power outages are a fact of life, not a SHTF scenario.
No fuel? Most farmers and ranchers have a supply on hand. You can't drive a tractor or an old farm truck to town to fill up all the time.
Back on topic....
I'll take the shotgun everytime!
Smoke
Come now sir, you can't be serious?
Rural folks have long dealt with the reality of poor to no utility service.
When the power goes, who do you think gets their's restored first? It ain't the guys in the sticks. Ever had your water freeze up for two weeks in town?
Many rural co-operatives in the power business are not exactly reliable. Power outages are a fact of life, not a SHTF scenario.
No fuel? Most farmers and ranchers have a supply on hand. You can't drive a tractor or an old farm truck to town to fill up all the time.
Back on topic....
I'll take the shotgun everytime!
Smoke
Marko Kloos
Moderator Emeritus
Somebody must have forgotten to tell my father-in-law, who is always sitting pretty on a few thousand gallons of fuel, a bunch of generators, and enough food and ammo to wait out another ice age. (Guess where we're headed if there's ever a need for an extended period of "rugged individualism"?)
Moparmike
Member
Marko, how does he keep the fuel stablized and food fresh? Gas & Diesel only stays good for 2yrs unstablized, and 5-7 stabilized. MRE's only last 12yrs, and that is at 30F!
With all that fuel and food and generators, he must have some stock in IBM from the 60's.
With all that fuel and food and generators, he must have some stock in IBM from the 60's.
Bigjake
Member
you gona engage at all when your AR-15 jams? 
seriously, where would a 300 yd target be an issue in an urban SHTF scenario? that may sound ignorant , and pry is considering i hit an honest to god "city" about 3 times a year.
seriously, where would a 300 yd target be an issue in an urban SHTF scenario? that may sound ignorant , and pry is considering i hit an honest to god "city" about 3 times a year.
seeker_two
Member
Yes, but Spam is forever.....
artherd
member
BOTH!
But if I had to leave one behind, I'd bring the Ar-15.
But if I had to leave one behind, I'd bring the Ar-15.
I enjoy all of the humor, but I have lived and visited many rural places. I grew up in Joseph, Oregon which is pretty dang remote, and I have inlaws spread all over Montana and North Dakota.
Only the more outlying farmers and ranchers I have met had anything more than a couple of weeks capability of going it alone in anything other than water, gasoline, and raw foodstuffs. If the SHTF scenario is short, that is great for the majority in the country, but I still contend that if something as simple as pipeline shutoffs/ ruptures occur and the above ground propane tanks run out, or God forbid, the Schwan man quits coming by, or the cigarettes dry up, many of those people who are not professional farmers/ranchers are in about as dire straits as many ill-prepared urban folk, just later rather than sooner.
Don't think your exceptions are the rule. My brother in law's farm in east central North Dakota is the only place I would flee to. The other relatives, though seemingly living the rugged and remote rural existence, are close enough to civilization that they depend on it to an "unhealthy extent" other than in the pantry for a weather emergency. I think I am better off with my own cabin outside of the city here in Oregon even though it is not a fuel dump or grain silo since preparation is in the will much more than in the locale.
Only the more outlying farmers and ranchers I have met had anything more than a couple of weeks capability of going it alone in anything other than water, gasoline, and raw foodstuffs. If the SHTF scenario is short, that is great for the majority in the country, but I still contend that if something as simple as pipeline shutoffs/ ruptures occur and the above ground propane tanks run out, or God forbid, the Schwan man quits coming by, or the cigarettes dry up, many of those people who are not professional farmers/ranchers are in about as dire straits as many ill-prepared urban folk, just later rather than sooner.
Don't think your exceptions are the rule. My brother in law's farm in east central North Dakota is the only place I would flee to. The other relatives, though seemingly living the rugged and remote rural existence, are close enough to civilization that they depend on it to an "unhealthy extent" other than in the pantry for a weather emergency. I think I am better off with my own cabin outside of the city here in Oregon even though it is not a fuel dump or grain silo since preparation is in the will much more than in the locale.
R127
Member
timely indeed
I've been going over in my head wether I should get an FAL or a shotgun first. An FAL represents high volume of fire at range with power and penetration. A 12ga is, well, a cannon!
Anyway, I reject the mousegun, I have confidence in neither the design nor the caliber, and yes, I have been formally trained on it. I won't bore you with the stories, I wish there was a modern American design that could step up to the plate, but circumstances being what they are....
If you want to make things interesting, let's make that shotgun a 12ga Saiga w/ 5 or 10 round detacheable magazines. While we're at it, cut the barrel down to 18 inches or so to open up the pattern a bit... now you don't just have a shotgun, you have an area-of-denial weapon as long as the ammo holds out. And Saigas are cheap. Dang, why don't I have one?!
I've been going over in my head wether I should get an FAL or a shotgun first. An FAL represents high volume of fire at range with power and penetration. A 12ga is, well, a cannon!
Anyway, I reject the mousegun, I have confidence in neither the design nor the caliber, and yes, I have been formally trained on it. I won't bore you with the stories, I wish there was a modern American design that could step up to the plate, but circumstances being what they are....
If you want to make things interesting, let's make that shotgun a 12ga Saiga w/ 5 or 10 round detacheable magazines. While we're at it, cut the barrel down to 18 inches or so to open up the pattern a bit... now you don't just have a shotgun, you have an area-of-denial weapon as long as the ammo holds out. And Saigas are cheap. Dang, why don't I have one?!
chaim
Member
Not all.
If something happened tomorrow I'd by necessity have to use my AR since I don't currently have a shotgun. However, in "theory" I'd prefer a shotgun in most urban SHTF possibilities and I would even more prefer both since circumstances can vary.
The most likely SHTF scenarios are mob defense in a riot situation or looter defense after a natural disaster. Since the main target would be businesses and I am not a business owner I'd probably be staying home to watch over my home and my main needs wouldn't be much different from regular HD needs. In that case there are good arguments for either a carbine or a shotgun, though I'd prefer not to use an AR simply because if there is a HD shooting I'd prefer not to use a politically charged weapon like the AR, especially here in MD (remember that order will eventually be restored). The shotgun does hit harder and with buck, birdshot, slugs and other types of rounds it is pretty versatile.
Now I did say circumstances vary, when would I want the carbine/AR? If the mob comes down my street and all bets are off I want several 20 round mags of .223/5.56 ready to go. Harder hitting doesn't matter as much as speed in that situation, and in the immediate need to survive who cares about court down the line. Also, if I was to go and be a visable presence to deter attack on my synagogue (or if I was a business owner) I might want the AR since these days everyone can recognize that shape and that alone may deter the typically gun ignorant thugs that would be out there.
The SHTF "game" people like to play of foreign or UN invaders...Then my answer is a little different. I don't think either is best. Again, an untrained individual who tries to go up against trained soldiers in small unit encounters wouldn't last long. The best SHTF gun to fight invaders would be a bolt action to pick off one or two at a time (in an urban situation .22lr would work, .223 might be ideal). The closest of your options for that would be the AR.
Carbonator
Member
AR, for capacity, speed, and accuracy over the shogun.
Rob96
Member
It is my poll and I still haven't voted. Like I said, I live in center city, surrounded by businesses. 300yd engagements definetly aren't in the game here, we're talking from one side of the street to the other. I own both types of long guns listed in the poll, and still have a tough time figuring out which would be best, because both have their merits for this type of situation.
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