13th Deer.

[retrieverman]

Redfactor

If you think that all Texas deer hunting is done inside high fences and in pens, you are sadly mistaken. I hunt in eastern Texas and northwest Oklahoma on several hundred acres of unfenced (not even a cow fence) land in each state and would put the "challenge level" of my hunting situations up against yours any day.

BTW Not even all South Texas is under high fence contrary to popular belief.

 

[TCB in TN]

To many folks are hung up on doing things the way they have always done them. Unless it effects another person then I believe in an utter live and let live mentality! Further more it is usually through the efforts of hunters that successful conservation efforts take place. Lets face it, they take MONEY, and well managed deer herds bring in money. I can't see any shape form or fashion in which that is a bad thing!

 

[Redfactor]

Retrieverman

Never did I say that ALL ranches have high fences or pens. I did imply that use of high fences is common practice, which is true.

1 ) Texas has too many deer. Texas is above its natural carrying capacity. Food plots and other supplemental nutrients are the only way some of these deer (especially hill country deer which make up 40% of the state's total deer population survive - even though they're half starving and malnourished) can survive.

2) It is this supreme sparsity of food per deer that makes food plots and feeders absolutely essential to a deer's livelihood. This is well documented by ranchers' inability to fully grow plots because the starving deer eat the buds of the plant before they blossom.

3) The population boom cannot be considered anyone but the people of Texas' fault as your state only has ~6% public land. Legislation has not been detrimental to a property-owner's ability to manage deer populations.

4) It is a common practice to breed deer in an attempt to produce antlers of which the property-owner wishes. These are farmed deer.

5) Even your state government tacitly condones the actions of people of Texas by giving more preference towards information on how to "manage" your deer to having the biggest antlers and heaviest bodies on the TPWD page over numbers, starvation, or impact on the land and environment.



As a whole Texans either actively participate or tacitly condone food plots and/or feeders and/or high fences.

Deer in Texas are breed and farmed in such numbers that to "hunt" them would be like fishing at a hatchery - and the style of "hunting" in front of feeders or plot fields is much like hunting in a zoo as all the animals are on display due to their inability to resist food as there's not enough food to sustain them all naturally.

As for your claim that your hunting challenges rival mine... there's nothing that I can say but, yeah, probably. But they're different. While your challenge is trying to find a place where you're allowed to hunt without spending a substantial amount of money but is countered by the ease of actually taking a deer once you've found a plot to sit by, my challenge is in figuring out the land and herd movements, tracking the herd, spotting my target, stalking it to within a clean kill range, and then taking the animal down. But my challenge is countered by Oregon's beautiful and plentiful public lands on which I'm allowed to hunt... for free


OREGON 1
TEXAS -1000

 

[retrieverman]

Redfactor

Both your posts are sweeping generalizations and about a subject which you obviously know nothing about. Texas is a huge place, and yes, there are some deer "ranches". They are, however, in the minority. You are watching too many hunting shows and reading too many magazines. That is not real life.

 

[Reyn]

Sounds like someone is jealous.

 

[K3]

redfactor,

I suggest you visit and hunt in Texas before [castigating from a lack of knowledge].

I hunt on 6 sections in West Texas canyon country. Blinds? Nope. Glass and stalk? Yep. Farm raised or bred? Nosir. We do have some cross breeding between mule deer and whitetails, but I can't keep a buck from humping what he wants to. Biggest rack I have is from a cross.

IMO, blind huntng is hard work. I just can't sit still quietly for that long. I'm always clanking around, moving the chair, eating a candy bar and worrying about the damn wrapper being too loud. It's no wonder I never see any deer on the occasions I get to hunt places with blinds.

 

[Redfactor]

1) Yeah, it's a sweeping generalization. I'm talking about Texas as a whole, not any specifics, so of course not everyone or every place in the state exactly fits.

2) I understand ranches. And I also realize that a large percent, if not the vast majority, of the ranches' clients are out-of-state visitors. Even my beloved Oregon has a limited number of these ranches http://www.oregontrophyelk.com/. This is as bad as it gets. Each Elk is tagged and you pay a price depending on the specific animal you're there to "hunt". It's absolutely the dumbest of the dumb.

3) You've confused jealousy with outrage. The way Texas handles deer is just another example of mankind's bastardization of nature to turn it into a grotesque perversion in order to suit our wishes.

4) I've been to Texas a few times, though I will admit I've never hunted there. I have a friend who was a professor at Sul Ross State University in Alpine.

 

[Reyn]

I've been to Texas a few times, though I will admit I've never hunted there

Then how can you know how difficult it is? Ive never hunted a high fence or over feeders but i have hunted over foodplots. No different than hunting over an acorn tree. I would never equate it to catching fish at a hatchery.

The way Texas handles deer is just another example of mankind's bastardization of nature to turn it into a grotesque perversion in order to suit our wishes

Could the same not be said for Oregon? If they allow ranches like the one you mentioned how are they any better?

 

[El General]

Retrieverman

I think you need to work on your reading comprehension a bit. Never did I say that ALL ranches have high fences or pens. I did imply that use of high fences is common practice, which is true.

1 ) Texas has too many deer. Texas is above its natural carrying capacity. Food plots and other supplemental nutrients are the only way some of these deer (especially hill country deer which make up 40% of the state's total deer population survive - even though they're half starving and malnourished) can survive.

2) It is this supreme sparsity of food per deer that makes food plots and feeders absolutely essential to a deer's livelihood. This is well documented by ranchers' inability to fully grow plots because the starving deer eat the buds of the plant before they blossom.

3) The population boom cannot be considered anyone but the people of Texas' fault as your state only has ~6% public land. Legislation has not been detrimental to a property-owner's ability to manage deer populations.

4) It is a common practice to breed deer in an attempt to produce antlers of which the property-owner wishes. These are farmed deer.

5) Even your state government tacitly condones the actions of people of Texas by giving more preference towards information on how to "manage" your deer to having the biggest antlers and heaviest bodies on the TPWD page over numbers, starvation, or impact on the land and environment.



As a whole Texans either actively participate or tacitly condone food plots and/or feeders and/or high fences.

Deer in Texas are breed and farmed in such numbers that to "hunt" them would be like fishing at a hatchery - and the style of "hunting" in front of feeders or plot fields is much like hunting in a zoo as all the animals are on display due to their inability to resist food as there's not enough food to sustain them all naturally.

As for your claim that your hunting challenges rival mine... there's nothing that I can say but, yeah, probably. But they're different. While your challenge is trying to find a place where you're allowed to hunt without spending a substantial amount of money but is countered by the ease of actually taking a deer once you've found a plot to sit by, my challenge is in figuring out the land and herd movements, tracking the herd, spotting my target, stalking it to within a clean kill range, and then taking the animal down. But my challenge is countered by Oregon's beautiful and plentiful public lands on which I'm allowed to hunt... for free


OREGON 1
TEXAS -1000

1 ) Texas has too many deer. Texas is above its natural carrying capacity. Food plots and other supplemental nutrients are the only way some of these deer (especially hill country deer which make up 40% of the state's total deer population survive - even though they're half starving and malnourished) can survive.

Deer have been overpopulated in many areas of Texas for much longer then food plots have been planted for their benefit. Most people would credit lack of predators and restrictive bag limits along with the "wisdom" of previous generations that restricted the shooting of does.

Genetic manipulation is not common practice. It is very expensive, and therefore available to very few. The same is true of high fencing.

Lots of people hunt from blinds and feeders, but many do not. For the purposes of wild herd management, they are indispensible. For the purpose of trophy hunting, they are not very effective. Trophy deer are old. Deer get shot at feeders. Trophy deer do not go to feeders (or only at night).

I know a gentleman that has shot something like 20 bucks that scored greater than 160 B&C (trophies in my book) in 25 or so years of hunting a large low fenced South Texas lease that does not feed protein. He shot exactly one that was utilizing a blind or feeder. He still hunts blinds and feeders for management purposes, because it is the most efficient way. It is very hard to spot and stalk 165 deer (the number they killed this year)

I know that politics effects all levels of gov't and some state DNR's are more prone to this than others, but I do not believe that the TPWD is overtly guilty of this practice. They have a stated policy that they do not enact regulation that is not backed up by some kind of science. My father works with them constantly in his volunteer efforts with CCA, and he would assure you this is true.

The State of Texas and its citizens has long had a hands off policy in regards to private land. You can do what you like on your own land more or less. In the political realm this is called conservatism. It is why Texans will have guns when citizens of other states will be applying for the right to own but not shoot air guns because you might put someone's eye out.

5) Even your state government tacitly condones the actions of people of Texas by giving more preference towards information on how to "manage" your deer to having the biggest antlers and heaviest bodies on the TPWD page over numbers, starvation, or impact on the land and environment.

The state promotes managing antlers and body weight using proper habitat and herd management. If habitat and herd is properly managed, then the impact on the environment is positive. I have never seen these starving deer that you are talking about. There are many subspecies of whitetail that have evolved to fill biological niches. Whitetails in the Hill Country are smaller framed than whitetails in other places. This is simply evolution.

Your spot and stalk method takes much skill, and you are to be commended for it. West Texas hunters utilize it extensively, because of the long range they can see their prey. It would be hard for the East Texas guys (and the South Texas guys), so they still hunt, another effective method that requires meticulous advance scouting, and requires a lot of skill.

As a whole Texans either actively participate or tacitly condone food plots and/or feeders and/or high fences.

I actively condone everyones right to hunt in any legal manner. To do anything less is tacitly condoning anti-hunters in my opinion. I also actively condone landowners right to fence and manage their property as they see fit. I actively condone proper herd management, in fact, I participate in a management program. I actively condone habitat management, and participate in efforts to improve habitat and several different properties.

If you are talking in generalizations, then yours are poorly informed.

 

[Redfactor]

No different than hunting over an acorn tree.

It 100% is different. If you can't tell the difference between a planted food plot and a naturally occurring acorn tree, then you're an idiot. Hunting from a stand or a blind is all about the pre-season scouting. So if you go scale the woods and find an acorn tree and then decide to set up a stand for the following day, that is WAY different than planting a plot or placing out a feeder.

Being in a tree stand or behind a blind should be the fruits of your pre-season scouting's labor.

Could the same not be said for Oregon? If they allow ranches like the one you mentioned how are they any better?

Hell no it can't. Our ODFW strickly controls the amount, type, and location of deer hunting.

As for the ranches, this basically boils down to the heart of the matter.

Oregonians don't condone the use of plots or feeders or fences. The ranch that I linked and the few others that exist like it are HEAVILY shunned around here. We don't like 'em. Period. Around here it is not acceptable to use such tactics; our people just don't do it.

That's why you don't find that food plot or feeder systems in our stores. If you want that crap you've gotta get it online or have it specially sent to a store - and you better believe if you have it ordered to a store you'll get a stare.

We don't bait, use dogs (on big-game), or use fences/plots/pellets. If you want to fill your tag year after year you're going to have to hit the arches and do some work for your meat.

 

[TCB in TN]

I would personally love to see some of those 1/2 starved "heavy bodied" deer from Texas up here in TN. But here in TN we have a very minimal amount of private high fence stuff and yet I know MANY folks who have taken a 1/2 dozen or more this last year. Heck between my two sons (14 and 11) they took 5 this year. We have plenty of deer, but few the size of those TX deer that are so starved to death.

 

[Reyn]

that is WAY different than planting a plot

No its not. Its'a food source. Do you think deer just pile into a food plot every morning and evening like clockwork?

Around here it is not acceptable to use such tactics; our people just don't do it

It must be. Your people are allowing it.

No need to take your jealous rage out on others because you cant kill a deer.

 

[K3]

I hunted over food plots in Mississippi. Ain't no clockwork to it. Some days there wasn't a single deer to be seen.

 

[Blackfork]

Hunting tactics

Shooting doetags is much easier than hunting for bucks behind the lakehouse. In that creekbottom and a few others around, the only thing that has worked is rattling bucks up during the rut. That's close and tough hunting. Shooting doetags from stands over feeders and foodplots much easier but far from a sure thing. Since its easier you really try and take time to pick the right deer, shoot well, process the meat quick, et, et.

Very few high-fenced places around North East Texas where I live, though there are some farms. I'm not paying for a lease anywhere. Deer coming back very thick, even in town. The racks look much better behind my lakehouse here in Smith County than they do up in Red River. Better genetics I think.

 

[retrieverman]

 

[Redfactor]

Lots of people hunt from blinds and feeders, but many do not.

That is my point again. It is socially acceptable to use food plots and feeders and fencing in Texas. That's just a ridiculous practice.

For the purposes of wild herd management, they are indispensable.

I can't believe this statement. Honestly, how did the deer ever manage before humans to manage them? YOU'RE FEEDING THE DEER! No wonder their numbers are so high. And don't even try to use "but natural predators are gone so they'd reproduce like rabbits if we changed what we're doing." That's just ignorance right there. If you stopped feeding them but continued hunting that would be just fine to manage a healthy, NATURAL-sized population. Would there be less deer? Yes. But at least it'd be better than it is now.

For the purpose of trophy hunting, they are not very effective. Trophy deer are old. Deer get shot at feeders. Trophy deer do not go to feeders (or only at night).

Very true, I don't deny this. Old trophies become old trophies for a reason.

The State of Texas and its citizens has long had a hands off policy in regards to private land. You can do what you like on your own land more or less. In the political realm this is called conservatism. It is why Texans will have guns when citizens of other states will be applying for the right to own but not shoot air guns because you might put someone's eye out.

And that's where we differ. I'm a liberal, I'll admit it. I like my ODFW doing something instead of nothing to protect our natural resources... which is why we have them still.

The state promotes managing antlers and body weight using proper habitat and herd management. If habitat and herd is properly managed, then the impact on the environment is positive. I have never seen these starving deer that you are talking about. There are many subspecies of whitetail that have evolved to fill biological niches. Whitetails in the Hill Country are smaller framed than whitetails in other places. This is simply evolution.

TPWD is attempting to slip you medicine into your spoon full of sugar. They're trying to implement healthy practices for the ultimate goal of bigger racks and heavier bodies. I'll address the body weight and nutrition in a second : )

I actively condone everyones right to hunt in any legal manner. To do anything less is tacitly condoning anti-hunters in my opinion.

Ethics should never be determined by the law. That's dangerous thinking. And unfortunately you're bound to lose more of the liberties you're trying to protect with that type of thinking than if you were to think against the grain.

No its not. Its'a food source.

Great, you've proved you're a moron. I'm not going to try and teach a blind man to see, so I'm done with you. OH! But before that, I'm going to go cook up a nice venison steak and some eggs in your honor : )

Okay, now for the nutrition and weight issue.

The average dressed weight for any age bracket (bucks) doesn't exceed 130lbs. That's about 160 lbs live weight. The average for does for any age bracket doesn't exceed 75 lbs. That's a live weight of about 95 lbs. While Texas whitetail will never get to be like Canada sized naturally because they're a different sub-species, that's still not a large deer.

That aside, deer weight does not equal healthy nutrition, and anyone who says so is just plain wrong. Now, I honestly can't find the report I was reading to post : ( but the gist of it was the percentage of grass eaten by the deer was way out of proportion of a healthy Forbs / Browse / Grass makeup. (Grass is the least nutritious and thus the last resort of a deer. I will continue looking for the report, and if I find it, I'll post it here again.

From TPWD:

"Deer may weigh heavy, but this does not represent good habitat conditions."

 

[auschip]

It 100% is different. If you can't tell the difference between a planted food plot and a naturally occurring acorn tree, then you're an idiot. Hunting from a stand or a blind is all about the pre-season scouting. So if you go scale the woods and find an acorn tree and then decide to set up a stand for the following day, that is WAY different than planting a plot or placing out a feeder.

Noticed you were new here. Generally speaking we try not to post inflammatory posts and call people idiots. It does happen, but for the most part people try to take "The Highroad".

Being in a tree stand or behind a blind should be the fruits of your pre-season scouting's labor.

Food plots don't grow on their own. If someone does put out a plot (which is fairly rare), they have to clear the land, till the soil, plant, water, and generally work very hard to keep the plot growing. The area we used to hunt was South Texas. South Texas gets an average of 20-24 inches of rain a year. It isn't exactly an easy place for things to grow.

Quote:
Could the same not be said for Oregon? If they allow ranches like the one you mentioned how are they any better?
Hell no it can't. Our ODFW strickly controls the amount, type, and location of deer hunting.

I think I prefer a bit more freedom then that. Your opinion may vary.

As for the ranches, this basically boils down to the heart of the matter.

Oregonians don't condone the use of plots or feeders or fences. The ranch that I linked and the few others that exist like it are HEAVILY shunned around here. We don't like 'em. Period. Around here it is not acceptable to use such tactics; our people just don't do it.

And yet they are still in business? If they aren't accepted and nobody uses them, how are they still in business?

That's why you don't find that food plot or feeder systems in our stores. If you want that crap you've gotta get it online or have it specially sent to a store - and you better believe if you have it ordered to a store you'll get a stare.

That might be a bit of a shock to the guys at Grassland Oregon.
http://www.sucraseed.com/aboutUs.html

Then again, I wouldn't expect a person to plant a foodplot on public land, it doesn't make sense.

We don't bait, use dogs (on big-game), or use fences/plots/pellets.

My research tells me otherwise (at least with regard to plots) and you yourself said some people use fences (again, I wouldn't expect people to fence public land). Hunting big game in Texas with dogs is illegal. I have been to Portland, and I have friends that live and work in Oregon, but I wouldn't feel comfortable passing judgement on folks in that area.

 

[Redfactor]

Generally speaking we try not to post inflammatory posts and call people idiots.

Fair enough. I apologize for that. But this debate is impossible unless both parties agree on certain premises, so there's no use talking with that guy.

Food plots don't grow on their own. If someone does put out a plot (which is fairly rare), they have to clear the land, till the soil, plant, water, and generally work very hard to keep the plot growing. The area we used to hunt was South Texas. South Texas gets an average of 20-24 inches of rain a year. It isn't exactly an easy place for things to grow.

That's true. The deer are farmed which results in the starvation and bastardization of natural deer herds. It's not hunting, harvesting.

And yet they are still in business? If they aren't accepted and nobody uses them, how are they still in business?

I called the local biologist that overlooks Oregon Trophy Elk ranch and asked her the same question. They're issued Guide Tags. Guide tags are for non residents only. Everyone who goes there is from out of the state. She also said a few interesting things about that particular ranch - she said that there is currently an effort to change the laws in a way to put them out of business (or at least change their practices).

That might be a bit of a shock to the guys at Grassland Oregon.
http://www.sucraseed.com/aboutUs.html

Then again, I wouldn't expect a person to plant a foodplot on public land, it doesn't make sense.

Benton County (the county in which I live and that company apparently resides) is ["the grass seed capital of the world." More grass seed and types of grass seed are farmed here than anywhere else. They don't sell to Oregon residents.

The use of food plots or feeder systems is illegal in the state of Oregon. <-----Proved to be not true
Although there may be different rules for people with Pioneer and Trapper licenses - but those people are the extreme minority. (I don't know of anyone with either of these).

 

[K3]

Redfactor:

If you don't like it, don't participate in that kind of 'hunt'. Simple as that. Others like it. It doesn't harm the population. Texas can do what it damn well pleases.

Your arrogance and self righteousness could be a little more hidden, doncha think?

Sorry, but I just couldn't be nice and hold my tongue any longer. I don't consider blind hunting challenging (other than having to sit still for so damn long, but that's more a comment in jest than anything else), but I'm not going to basically call a person a puss for it.

Read the following and etch it deeply into your mind:

The more people that use firearms, the better, regardless of what type of peashooter they like, what kind of hunting they do, or their other politics. This 'my niche is better than your niche' is what's killing us. If we can't stop nagging and nitpicking each other, we'll never have time to stand up to the likes of McCarthy, Schumer, Daley, Clinton, Obama, etc, ad nauseum.

 

[Reyn]

debate is impossible unless both parties agree on certain premises, so there's no use talking with that guy.

Your the one who started the name calling.

If parties agreed it wouldnt be debating. Obviously you let your short temper get the best of you.

 

[retrieverman]

Gentlemen

This "debate" is pointless. Redfactor doesn't want to even try to understand hunting in Texas and is obviously just going to continue bashing. I am happy to let him stay in Oregon and continue believing that he is the only "true" deer hunter in the world.

 

[auschip]

So I checked the hunting laws of Oregon at http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/big_game/regulations/2008gamewebnoads.pdf

The only thing I could find about "baiting" was that it wasn't legal to use on Black Bears. I didn't see anything about deer. Is there a better handbook I should be reading?


All, I would also request we try and stay on the Highroad. We can argue without calling names. Even heated discussion can stay insult free.

 

[Redfactor]

The only thing I could find about "baiting" was that it wasn't legal to use on Black Bears. I didn't see anything about deer. Is there a better handbook I should be reading?

Oh boy, I'm about to eat a big 'ol piece of humble pie here....

So I called the ODFW wildlife resource center to find the source on baiting and was shocked to learn that in fact, it is not illegal to bait deer.

Though twice the person played the ethics card to try and sway me to not use "baiting techniques as it places the hunter in an unfair advantage over the animal."

I honestly didn't think twice when the biologist told me it was illegal. I just figured the bear/cougar part was still in the regulations book as it wasn't too long ago that we changed that law ('94 or so?).

Did I jump the gun before double-checking my source? yep.

As for the seed company down the road from here, I would still submit (not fact-checked) that the majority to vast majority of their business is out of state. They're just in Oregon because grass grows so well here (plays hell on our allergies).

Damn... haha, didn't want to concede this but when you're wrong you're wrong : (

 

[Redfactor]

Heya guys, I've gotten a warning from an administrator and rather than watch my tongue I'm going to say farewell.

We weren't going to agree on ethical tactics of taking deer anyways

 

[Art Eatman]

For those not from Texas: First off, get a state map. Then, draw a line from around Wichita Falls to Del Rio. Fair sized area, ain't it? West of that line there are not a whole heckuva lot of deer per section of land. A section is 640 acres.

The general "Hill Country" area, roughly north, northwest and west of Austin for a hundred miles or so is overloaded with runty deer. Not enough predation, whether four-legged or two-legged. Too many deer for the habitat, commonly.

I am not all that familiar with hunting in the general area east of I-45 and ranging from Oklahoma down to the coast. But that's where most of our wet country and timber are located. The landform and vegetation don't change much until you get to the Atlantic coast.

To summarize the reality of actual hunting: Maybe five percent of Texas hunting lands might be behind high fences. My personal view is that I drive far more miles on many more highways across more of Texas than 99% of Texans on this website. I don't like Interstates, and I do a lot of "just meddling" travel. And I read a lot.

High stands? Many areas are not huntable in any other manner. Accept my word; I've explained it thoroughly in other threads here and at TFL. Caveat: That doesn't mean high stands aren't used in country that's quite suitable for my favorite style, "sneaky-snaking". But consider that not everybody has the time or skill to spend lengthy periods trying for that one particular Ol' Biggie.

And no matter how abrasive somebody might be, remember that we don't give prizes for "Top Snark Of The Month".

Art