351 WINCHESTER
Member
One can only guess what really happened. One thing for sure is we need to pray for his family and teach our kids well.
14 year old killed in muzzle loading accident
- Thread starter 4v50 Gary
- Start date
- Status
arcticap
Member
A later article says that a .50 caliber ball was loaded into a .45 caliber muzzle loader.
sharps59
Member
has anybody thought of the obvious. He started to load it got the ball part way in and stuck. caped it and fired to try and clear it. thats all it can takes to blow a barrel.
I feel lucky now. There are a few times Ive got a bullet stuck and held the rifle out with one arm and touched it off to clear it. It only takes once, not that we know thats what happened anyways. Sad to see this happen, and it probably happens more often then we know. Ima be more careful in the future, that much I know.
Gambit
Gambit
bellyup039
Member
sharps59 and Gambit88
I thought the same thing.
All my prayer's are with the family.
I purchased a CO2 unloader and once i got it home, found out it was for percussion, and I had to order the kit to use for a flinter.
WHICH I did right away.
I havnt had to use it yet. but It's nice to know i have it in the possiable bag.
If indeed that is what happened. This simple tool might have saved his life.
I thought the same thing.
All my prayer's are with the family.
I purchased a CO2 unloader and once i got it home, found out it was for percussion, and I had to order the kit to use for a flinter.
WHICH I did right away.
I havnt had to use it yet. but It's nice to know i have it in the possiable bag.
If indeed that is what happened. This simple tool might have saved his life.
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
Member.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 1,632
Back in those North Alabama hills where I was borned and reared, when I was 9 years old I was out there by myself helping to feed my family with a steel trap and a .22 rifle..(plus my regular chores and all)..When I got a little growth on me and a little reach, I was moved up to my long dead Grandpa's .32 caliber squirrel rifle....
WALKERs210
Member
Genleman which hills here in N.Ala did you run around in. Might have shot at the same squirrel or at least litter mate. Born in Bham and got moved to WALKER county when I was 2mo old. Left when I was 17 and swore up and down I would never come back. Wound up buying my mothers house and raised my kids there.
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
Member.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 1,632
Just a little North and to the East of Huntsville Ala. (Madison county) (Huntsville was real small back then)..I also left at 17 years of age, headed for a funny green bastard known as USMCRD, Parris Island, S.C. ..My surviving family members are mostly all still there. I love them and they love me and I tried to make a go of it back in Alabama but I just couldn't handle Alabama anymore and so here I am....
I know it's important to have the projectile seated against the charge, but I thought this was to be sure it's not double-charged (with a mark on the ramrod) and to insure consistent ignition.
How would air space alone cause a gun-shattering pressure spike? Has this danger ever been demonstrated, or is the warning based on rumor, folklore, and speculation (like the sign warning not to use your phone at the gas station)?
He was probably shooting a CVA or other cheap import that can't take a strong load; a number of people have been injured.
See: http://cvaguncases.com/Case___Information_Page.html
And: http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm
arcticap
Member
Seating the projectile on top of the powder charge is one of the cardinal rules of muzzle loading. Never leave an air space when loading any muzzle loader.
The warning about an air gap is not folklore. It has caused serious damage and injury in using black powder weapons. The physics are complex but involve additional oxygen increasing the speed of the reaction plus the space to allow it; the space initially results in a lower chamber pressure and then a spike when the gas fills the chamber. It isn't always catastrophic, but it can be under the right circumstances.
So far this thread is data-free speculation fueled by clearly incompetent media reporting. I don't personally have an opinion as to the cause of this accident yet; I'll wait until more credible information is available. Not that it matters to anyone else.
By the way, I don't consider Mr. Wakeman's rant against CVA as credible.
So far this thread is data-free speculation fueled by clearly incompetent media reporting. I don't personally have an opinion as to the cause of this accident yet; I'll wait until more credible information is available. Not that it matters to anyone else.
By the way, I don't consider Mr. Wakeman's rant against CVA as credible.
Last edited:
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
A common misconception about black powder is that because it produces low pressures it can't be dangerous. Nothing could be further from the truth. Under the right conditions...or the wrong ones as it were...black powder and its substitutes can be more dangerous than smokeless. It's a hard lesson that many have learned by being careless or not knowing or following proper loading procedure. You're more likely to get away with seating two balls on top of a charge than seating one ball off the charge...provided the first ball seats to the charge and the second ball seats to the first ball. Leave a gap anywhere, and you're virtually guaranteed a nasty surprise.
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
Member.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 1,632
I do not consider Mr. Wakeman's rant against CVA as credible either. (Nor against Traditions either in the event he should call them by name)....
Chawbaccer
Member
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2005
- Messages
- 1,865
mykeal ses
e tu?
e tu?
Cosmoline
Member
I think you have it there. The worst recoil I've ever experienced was with a ball that I didn't seat all the way (I was chatting with someone--like an idiot--and didn't pay attention to my rod marker). The recoil was enough to actually bruise my shoulder and knock the wind out of me--something no other firearm even the mega-bore bear guns have done to me. Thankfully the weapon was of good modern steel and nothing kaboomed. Heck of a way to proof a barrel.
Be careful out there!
WALKERs210
Member
First and foremost this is a horrible tragedy for the young man and his family. Reporters have a tendency to grab a small amount of information trying to be the first to and gain their own glory. More often than not the story can be twisted seven ways from Sunday and when the real truth comes out the Reporters have nothing to do with it. Accidents are caused, not just a random event, by many aspects. Failure to comply with written instructions, deliberate attempts to exceed the written warnings, and one that I have seen more time that I care to think of is simply complacency. A person will do the same thing over and over and over then for some reason one seemly simple step can result in a catastrophic event. Regardless as to what happened either human error or failure of the barrel a young man died which should serve as a lesson to everyone to use utmost care and safety and God bless his soul and may God give his family peace in this horrible time.
Chasing Crow
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2010
- Messages
- 82
Sad indeed. My daughter knew with what and how to load her smoothbore at 8. However, supervision is a must. But hell, I can hardly force a .310 ball down my 32! A 50????
Al LaVodka
member
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1,040
I was just reminded of somethings awful: Murphy's Law and Darwin's Award.
Everyone here has been reminded or, sadly, learned of the tragic consequence of not acting safely. More accidents might have been avoided and lives saved by sharing here...
Al
Everyone here has been reminded or, sadly, learned of the tragic consequence of not acting safely. More accidents might have been avoided and lives saved by sharing here...
Al
I really would like to know what happened.
Such a shame 'the press' is so often made up of boobs who have no worldly sense and no worldly experience and no technical experience with anything to ever know how screwed up their stories ( and interpolations ) are.
Such a shame 'the press' is so often made up of boobs who have no worldly sense and no worldly experience and no technical experience with anything to ever know how screwed up their stories ( and interpolations ) are.
Do you find the dozens of injured plaintiff's credible?
http://cvaguncases.com/Case___Information_Page.html
Cosmoline, what brand was it? I'm guessing not CVA
I found several theories on the danger short-starting in Chapter 3 of "The Complete Blackpowder Handbook". The book also reports on some tests that were done by firing short started loads from test barrels made from .54 cal copper pipe. They were able to reproduce the effect and bulge or split the copper pipe at the point where the short-started projectile lay in the "barrel".
Read here from the bottom of page 42: http://books.google.com/books?id=Dzxyneq43AEC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA42#v=onepage
Here's my theory:
A small part of the blackpowder charge burns, accelerating the bulk of the unburned powder down the barrel at supersonic velocity. When this high-velocity plug of BP hits the ball, it detonates and creates a "walnut" in the barrel (or explodes if it's a CVA).
Cosmoline
Member
The fouling tricked me into thinking by feel that I seated it on the charge. In reality I had packed it firmly just about an inch and a half over the charge, with the air space in between. Mine is a low-end custom and somewhat undersized .54 smoothbore from Sitting Fox. I was expecting at least a bulge, but thankfully there wasn't even that. Though I've kept the charges real light int hat one since.
I learned short starting wasn't a theoretical risk. And that seating by feel is not reliable.
On the plus side, it hit a bulls-eye at fifty yards and must have packed one heck of a whallop ;-)
I learned short starting wasn't a theoretical risk. And that seating by feel is not reliable.
On the plus side, it hit a bulls-eye at fifty yards and must have packed one heck of a whallop ;-)
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
It depends. Was it determined that the rifles were properly loaded? If they were, then the numbers mean something. If they weren't...then the burden is on the owner/shooter. The problem is in proving it one way or another. Because the plaintiffs have a dog in the fight, and obtaining money for their mishaps is the ultmate end...they're either unaware, or unwilling to admit that they did anything wrong. I suspect that in the majority of the incidents...if not all of them...the rifles wern't loaded properly.
Why?
Because the old muzzle loaders were made of wrought iron, and they managed to stand up to a lot of shooting...because in those days, proper loading was understood and practiced. Even 1018 (Cold Rolled) steel is stronger than wrought iron.
DrLaw
Member
I agree with Mykeal
This issue came up a couple years ago. I followed the paper trails. Dead ends, no pun intended.
Being a lawyer, I can tell you all that anybody can sue anybody for anything at anytime. Proving the claim is another thing entirely.
I really looked into the suits, and found that most all were dismissed or thrown out. Having a number of plaintiffs proves nothing. Wakeman was also the investigator for the lawyer making most of the lawsuits. Kind of puts things in a whole new light, doesn't it?
Anyway, I am also in agreement that one of the ways this could have happened was that the ball was not put all the way down on top of the charge. It's a sad lesson for everybody, but it does not mean that CVA is a bad gun. Far from it.
The Doc is out now.
PS. CVA was more than open with me about the whole issue, too. Something you DO NOT EXPECT from a guilty party trying to hide things.
This issue came up a couple years ago. I followed the paper trails. Dead ends, no pun intended.
Being a lawyer, I can tell you all that anybody can sue anybody for anything at anytime. Proving the claim is another thing entirely.
I really looked into the suits, and found that most all were dismissed or thrown out. Having a number of plaintiffs proves nothing. Wakeman was also the investigator for the lawyer making most of the lawsuits. Kind of puts things in a whole new light, doesn't it?
Anyway, I am also in agreement that one of the ways this could have happened was that the ball was not put all the way down on top of the charge. It's a sad lesson for everybody, but it does not mean that CVA is a bad gun. Far from it.
The Doc is out now.
PS. CVA was more than open with me about the whole issue, too. Something you DO NOT EXPECT from a guilty party trying to hide things.
They also used to proof test the barrels with a double charge to weed out the weak barrels. This isn't bothered with anymore.
How does the scam work? Are the scammers hoping to lose an eye and a few fingers to get sympathy and extra $$$???
What would that tell me? Just that CVA is paying out-of-court settlements that include non-disclosure agreements.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked