158 gr Gold Dot.....

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Messages
942
Location
Rural South
In another post it was said that the Speer 158 grain Gold Dot in .357 magnum was designed with hunting in mind, and would under expand in a self defense situation. Is that true? I carry these in my 3" K-frames.......

Fired into water filled milk jugs the first two just explode, found the fully expanded bullet in the fourth one. I have no idea how this round would perform on a human being. SHould I get some federal 158 gr hydrashock, or maybe go back to the old FBI load (.38+P 158gr LHP)?

What are some other good performing 158 grain loads for a 3" barrel? I am set at 158 because those are the only ones that shoot to the POA in my S&W model 65.
 
My impression was that the Gold Dots did very well in slower moving rounds, about 8-900 fps. In higher velocity they tend to disintegrate, which is not what you want. For the higher velocity I would think Golden Sabres would work better.
 
The Rabbi- I think you have it backwards;

The Gold Dot is a bonded bullet, most Gold Dot bullets designed to expand at 1000 FPS will still hold together at 1500 FPS or more.

However, the Golden Saber isnt bonded, and even at the recommended velocities, they commonly experience jacket/core separations. However, you were right, becuase the Golden Sabers are to my knowledge, the bullets with the highest window of velocity needed to expand. In other words, they will expand at much lower velocities than other bullets.

If you want a hot 158 grain load, look into www.doubletapammo.com . They have some of the hottest 158 grain ammo available, and at a pretty good price (around $20 per 50 IIRC).
 
The Speer 158 gr Gold Dot in .357 should do just fine.

Whether you say penetrartion trumps expansion or expansion trumps penetration you'll probably achieve both with this ammo.

However, in a short barrel, recovery time between shots might be a little slower and muzzle flash might be a bit more intense.

But if you can shoot it well and if it's accurate in your revolver my advice is to keep on using it.

Remember anything fired from a handgun for self defense is iffy at best.
 
If you read the Speer technical data for the various Gold Dot ammo that they make you will see that each bullet is designed for a particular usage and velocity. Some Gold Dots are designed for optimum performance at 850-900 fps (.38 spl +P 135 gr., .45 Colt 200 gr., etc.) others, like the 158 gr. Gold Dot are designed to hold together for much higher velocities as would be desired for hunting. Don't group all Gold Dot bullets in a clump and say they are all designed the same... they definitely are not.

The 158 gr. Gold Dot will definitely have significant effect no matter what you fire it from, but don't count on any expansion at slower velocities. It's designed to be pushed fast and penetrate deeply in tough stuff... like game. Speer specifically states that the 158 gr. is optimized for hunting, though it is not a bad choice for self defense, especially where there may be a lot to overcome in reaching vitals, like heavy clothing, limbs in front of torso, etc.

The 125 gr. Gold Dot will expand reliably and not penetrate as deeply (as the 158 gr.) at lower velocities. On the other hand, Speer caution not to push the Gold Dots bullets which were designed to expand at low velocities, up to high velocities, as the light weight Gold Dots are more likely overexpand on impact, shed their petals, lose weight, and not penetrate as deeply as might be desired.

Bullet selection, if done properly, considers the velocity of the round, the intended target, winter or summer clothing, hide or human skin, distance, barrel length, etc. Each bullet is designed for a specific usage and circumstance... beware of generalizations about bullets or bullet types. Some hollowpoints are made to hold together at high speed and would expand little at lower speeds, others which may look nearly the same will expand reliably at low speed but will disintegrate at high speed.
 
Last edited:
Since there is no magic bullet and all JHPs are compromises between reliable expansion and deep enough penetration, it all comes back to a personal choice.

Some rounds in .357 Magnum are noted for their reliable expansion in jello. These would be the easy opening 125gr. offerings by several manufacturers and the 145 gr. Silvertips.

Others, as noted, are designed to hang together at higher velocities and have more controlled expansion, which by controlled they mean it will likely expand but it may not depending on the velocity achieved. These rounds are not designed with snubbies in mind

The easy openers have to confront the issue that they may not reliably penetrate deeply enough to be truly effective, especially against a medium tougher than bare gelatin. The controlled openers face "over penetration" issues and may not expand as dramatically.

Many wheelgunners like the Winchester Silvertip because they see it as splitting the difference. Soft enough to expand, heavier than a 125 to perhaps push deeper into the target.

I prefer the heavies, like the 158gr Gold Dot and the 180 grain Winchester Partition Gold. These rounds are more in the hunting end of the spectrum. It is said that these might not work as well on thinner skinned humans as they do on tougher skinned animals due to the different mix of expansion versus penetration. Maybe.

I view it this way--There is an obesity problem in this nation, much of it carried frontally. One of the most spectacular failures of the .357 Magnum ever recorded involved the 145gr Winchester Silvertip.

Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.

Firearms Tactical's Take on the Trooper Coates Shooting

For those that don't know, the Trooper was tragically killed by a single .22 round that slipped by his vest through the arm hole.

Most of the people I will encounter at the 45th parallel also wear lots of clothing, some of it, like parkas, are much thicker than four layers of denim. I will gamble on penetration over expansion. If I get both, great! If I only get one, I'd rather the target be perhaps drilled very deeply or through and throughed rather than perhaps not deeply enough. The one thing Trooper Coates needed from his SD ammo was penetration. Too much is better than not enough in the vast, vast, vast, majority of likely self-defense encounters.

Of course, firing the heavies is easier in a 4" to 6" revolver than in a snub. YMMV.
 
I have the 180 Partition Gold in .357 magnums 2.5" and up, you never can tell what you're hunting and these babies will open to .5-.6" and go thru-anything so be sure of your backstop (rule #4).
That said the 158 grain hollowpoints Rem scallop nose, Speer Gold Dots, Hornady and Federal are "all good" as they say ;) . I only drop down to 125grain bullets in 2" barrel .357's or 38 spls (and in .38s I like 158LSWXHP or 127-135 grain 'new generation ' bullets).
While I haven't shot a human with any revolver , I sure as heck have shot a lot of livestock ect, and know what works and what 'sometimes' works ;)
 
Boats -

You're reading a whole lot into the Trooper Coates incident. It was not necessarily a failure to penetrate, but rather a failure to hit anything vital. Coates was killed by a single .22 bullet (from a mini at that) that just happened to hit something vital. The point of the Firearms Tactical article was the myth of "energy transfer" not a lack of penetration.
 
After considering the manufacturer's technical design parameters for a particular round, my tendency is to lean toward heavier bullets at somewaht lower velocities rather than fast light ones... for me, penetration comes first and expansion is nice if you can get it. I agree that we live in a society of heavy people, and when heavily clothed, a bullet with significant penetration ability is very important. For that reason the 145 and 158 grainers are my preference. I wouldn't risk carrying 110 or 125 grainers out of concern for over expansion and underpenetration. On top of that, those light, fast loads are more wearing on a gun than the heavier loads.
 
I don't think I am reading too much into it.

Six hits--six failures to incapacitate. The odds are 6 times. . . .carry the 3. . . .freakin' astronomical. :eek:

The abdomen is full of vital areas that will incapacitate. The liver and kidneys bleed like the floodgates have been open if ruptured or lacerated. The descending aorta, the spine, the spleen is no picnic.

However, Coates' target was wearing a blubber layer. Hydrostatic shock didn't stop the assailant, however, none of the bullets apparently reached anything vital either.

So though FT was talking about hydrostatic shock and "knockdown" not existing in pistols, I take away from that gunfight that placement doesn't mean squat if the bullet doesn't reach the vitals.

Though apparently none of Coates' shots were ideal COM shots, they are pretty good hits under the circumstances. Four contact hits to the torso initially and two more at an angle I have never seen anyone train for at the range.

His Silvertips did what they were designed to do. Too bad that they didn't have what it takes to possibly "overpenetrate."
 
Ok, Stupid question time:

I have read (and for the most part believe) that bullet weight is more important (in reasonable ratios) than bullet velocity in determining penetration.

That being said, the Fed 158 JHP should penetrate deeper than the Fed 125 JHP (both are the "classic" style).

However I have read that it is just the opposite and, in fact my own testing bear this out.

In penetration tests against both damp and dry packed news print, the 125 JHP penetrates considerably deeper than the 158 jhp when fired at 15 yards from the same gun.

How come?
 
Cayoot... good question (not a dumb one!). I'm not familiar with those bullets, but are they of the same design and style, differing only in weight? It does seem odd that the 125 would penetrate deeper than the 158, all other factors being equal. Hopefully someone here can explain this.
 
Maybe it can be explained by the fact that newsprint is a poor medium to test penetration in, but pretty good for getting looks at expansion (wet) or recovering bullets intact without dealing with a huge mess (dry.)

Newsprint is not what those bullets were designed to penetrate in. My theory is that the velocity matters more in newsprint, and the high friction environment slows the penetrative inertial momentum of the heavier projectile more efficiently than it stops the kinetic momentum imparted in higher proportion to the lighter projectile.

I'd bet in gelatin or a liquid based bullet trap, like water filled cardboard milk cartons, the heavier one will penetrate more deeply than the lighter one.
 
Maybe it can be explained by the fact that newsprint is a poor medium to test penetration in, but pretty good for getting looks at expansion (wet) or recovering bullets intact without dealing with a huge mess (dry.)

Boats,

Maybe you are right, however I remember what initiated that test (that I conducted into newsprint) was an article in Shooting Times (back in the early part of the 1980's) that mentioned the greater penetration of the Fed .357 125 Jhp over the Fed. .357 158 JHP. When I read this, I thought, "what a stupid statement! Everybody knows that the 158 will penetrate deeper! I'm going to prove this, then right them a letter and drop my subscription!"

Well, after I tested, then picked my jaw up off the ground, I decided that I didn't know any where near what I thought I did! (I also still have my subscription. :) )

So I don't know....I will start collecting milk jugs to fill with water and test these two cartridges against each other (again).

Does anyone else have any actual, personal comparison test experience in this? :confused:
 
Hi DHart,

How goes it? You were wondering why 125 penetrated farther than 158 with all things being equal. Fact is, all things are not equal. You have to factor the SUBSTANTIAL velocity increase in the 125 round. If the velocity was equal, the 158 would penetrate much farther, but it's not. I'm no expert, but I do know that the 125 grainer has not developed the reputation as the big dog it is in terms of stopping power by having a penetration problem. By the way, keep buying those sweet revolvers and posting those pictures. Very nice.
 
The Federal 158 is 1240 fps and the 125 is 1450 fps. This is the same velocity spread typically seen in these bullet weights/caliber from all of the major cartridge manufacturers.

Speer's Gold Dot 158 is 1235 fps and the 125 Gold Dot is 1450 fps and as I understand it, the 158 Gold Dot penetrates more than the 125 Gold Dot. Just the opposite of what was observed with the Federals.

Without knowing the exact differences in the construction of the Federal bullets, it's difficult to make some of these comparisons. I have no idea how the construction of the Federal 158 JHP differs from that of the Federal 125 JHP. But my understanding is that the 158 gr. Gold Dot is a bit more heavily constructed than the 125 grainer... and that construction difference has something to do (beyond the weight difference) with why it penetrates deeper than the 125 gr.

Generally speaking, with a velocity increase, expansion increases, thereby increasing frontal surface area and decreasing penetration.

Studies have shown that it's not uncommon to experience an increase in penetration when you decrease the speed of a bullet. Sounds weird, but is generally understood.

It's typical for bullets of similar design but different weight and speed for the heavier/slower ones to penetrate more and the lighter/faster ones to penetrate less. That's why the surprise over the terminal performance of these Federal bullets. Perhaps the Federal 158 gr. is more lightly constructed than the Federal 125 grainer... but that would be a real surprise to me. :eek:
 
I'm sure that bullet design has something to do with it. If a bullet like the gold dot is designed to expand at lower velocities, it tends to over-expand or fragment at top end velocities, which would create a much bigger penetration gap between the lighter/heavier bullets. The Federal is an older design that maybe has a less rapid/violent expansion, which would give it better penetration with the increase of velocity. Just spitballin' here, but it kind of makes sense to me, (doesn't mean that it actually makes sense).
 
Studies have shown that it's not uncommon to experience an increase in penetration when you decrease the speed of a bullet. Sounds weird, but is generally understood.
Gun owners tend to be obsessed with kinetic energy for some reason. I suppose as a single number, its as good a predictor of performance as anything. But we shouldn't just be looking at single numbers.

Long story short as bullet weight increases projectile momentum increases, but kinetic energy drops (because energy is v^2). Momentum is probably a better predictor of penetration and how hard a given bullet is to stop. So the 158 grainers will tend to penetrate better than the 125 grainer.
 
357wheelgunner... I think you're referring to a comment I made about the 158 grainer in another thread. It's true that the round is suited to lighter game like deer because it is designed to hold together better at high velocity and not expand too readily... deep penetration is very important in hunting. Most of the light hollowpoints would drastically overexpand and not penetrate nearly enough for hunting. And that can be a significant drawback of the light/fast JHPs in self defense as well. And yes, the 158 Gold Dot is less likely to expand in a human adversary. But that doesn't make it unsuitable for defense, by any means. Basically I'd not worry about it... you will be well served indeed with the 158 gr. Gold Dot from your 3" K's (or any other .357's you choose, including a 2.5"er). You should expect somewhere in the neighborhood of 1180 fps with that bullet from a 3"er, which is plenty of velocity.

You may not see much expansion in certain targets, but the bullet is quite likely to get deep into wherever you place it, even if it has to go through an arm and a bunch of clothing and fat to get there.

You will also be well served with the 145 gr. Silvertip. As long as you stay with the heavier (145 to 158gr.) .357 JHP's in the 1050 fps+ range, you will be well served and your gun won't get eaten alive quite as quickly as with the fast flying lightweights.

What you really should be most concerned about, however, is your ability to rapidly put those puppies right where they need to go and to be able to do so under duress. Practice shooting well and enjoy!
 
The 158 grain Gold dot in those tests were pushed much faster than the bullets Speer loads. I dont know how it would effect the test results though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top