158gr Flat Point BB "Hard & Fast Lead Cast"

[tws3b2]

New to reloading. I've gone from know nothing to Know little about reloading. Some tell me "Little" is very dangerous.
I just finished my first loads, 38spl, 158gr xtp, w231 powder 3.9 gr.. Mild, less recoil and pretty accurate for me.
I was looking at the small local reloading store for some cheaper practice bullets. They have 158gr, flat point bb. " Hard & Fast lead cast" printed on the box.$55/500.
My data sheet gives 3.1gr as starting point and 3.7gr max using w231.
I don't think I've ever had any dealings with hard cast ammo before.
158gr. with 3.3gr 231 seem to be a good Mild practice load in a snubby revolver?
Only loading 38spl. and probably some 9mm later. No others.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

158gr. with 3.3gr 231 seem to be a good Mild practice load in a snubby revolver?

Yes.

BB means bevel base. BB bullets are beveled on the lower edge to make them easier to seat - typically in progressive presses but your Lee Classic as well. The bevel may also seal poorly and can allow some leading to occur. Notice the words can and may - not to be confused with the words are or will.

 

[ballman6711]

I haven't loaded lead in my 357mag, but I do load it in my 45 Colt and 45acp, so I have a few observations but can't make specific recommendations for the 38spcl.

First, go up in bullet diameter by .001", maybe .002", over what you shoot in jacketed. So for 38spcl, use a .358" bullet. Second, most lead data is lower than jacketed. Stick to the published data, start low and work up to your desired accuracy or recoil limit and you'll be fine. I usually make five or ten loads at each charge, and after shooting them go back and try the one/ones I liked the most again. If it doe's well again, that is my load.

Keep notes, you will thank yourself later. I keep a logbook of every load I've made, along with notes on how it shot, what I thought, etc....

Consider using coated lead bullets. They are cleaner when loading, and IMO a bit cleaner shooting, meaning less (or no) leading in your gun.

One last thing, when seating a lead bullet, look for lead shaving (small slivers or rings of lead). If you see this, you need just a bit more bell/flair on your brass. Lead bullets generally need more bell/flair than jacketed.

chris

 

[.45Coltguy]

OP, first, who makes those cast 158's and, are they .358"?[they ought to be]. Also, is there a Brinell hardness[BHN], like 12, 15 or 18?

I was typing at the same time as ballman6711. Yes, get coated when you can. Much cleaner. Thanks for that ballman. Good point.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I think the OP should remind people at the start of every thread that he’s using a Classic Lee Loader, not a Dillon 750XL or a Lymans Turret or a Rock Chucker III… “more flair” with a Classic Lee Loader means buying a separate hand tool. The flairing tool is not included in the .38Spl kit.

 

[tws3b2]

I haven't loaded lead in my 357mag, but I do load it in my 45 Colt and 45acp, so I have a few observations but can't make specific recommendations for the 38spcl.

First, go up in bullet diameter by .001", maybe .002", over what you shoot in jacketed. So for 38spcl, use a .358" bullet. Second, most lead data is lower than jacketed. Stick to the published data, start low and work up to your desired accuracy or recoil limit and you'll be fine. I usually make five or ten loads at each charge, and after shooting them go back and try the one/ones I liked the most again. If it doe's well again, that is my load.

Keep notes, you will thank yourself later. I keep a logbook of every load I've made, along with notes on how it shot, what I thought, etc....

Consider using coated lead bullets. They are cleaner when loading, and IMO a bit cleaner shooting, meaning less (or no) leading in your gun.

One last thing, when seating a lead bullet, look for lead shaving (small slivers or rings of lead). If you see this, you need just a bit more bell/flair on your brass. Lead bullets generally need more bell/flair than jacketed.

chris

Yes, these are .358. And, hard cast so they should be less or no leading. Correct?

 

[tws3b2]

I think the OP should remind people at the start of every thread that he’s using a Classic Lee Loader, not a Dillon 750XL or a Lymans Turret or a Rock Chucker III… “more flair” with a Classic Lee Loader means buying a separate hand tool. The flairing tool is not included in the .38Spl kit.

Yes there IS a flairing tool included. Not very hi-tech but works good.

 

[tws3b2]

OP, first, who makes those cast 158's and, are they .358"?[they ought to be]. Also, is there a Brinell hardness[BHN], like 12, 15 or 18?

I was typing at the same time as ballman6711. Yes, get coated when you can. Much cleaner. Thanks for that ballman. Good point.

Shame on me, I don’t remember the Brand name and don't remember seeing the BHN. If, If I go back to buy I will check that out.
Thanks

 

[mdi]

I have been reloading 38 Specials with lead bullets since 1970. The best way to reduce/stop leading is bullet to gun fit, not hardness. I cast and shot many, many bullets running about 12 BHN, both light and heavy loads. A rule of thumb is to use bullets the same diameter as the cylinder throats. You can slug the throats the same as slugging the barrel (throats must be larger than groove diameter). I started with a Lee Loader and used the data sheet but soon as I could I got a full reloading manual and a scale (still used dippers, but weighed most charges). One of the best manuals for both lead and jacketed bullets is the Lyman Reloading Handbook

Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Yes there IS a flairing tool included. Not very hi-tech but works good.

“more flair”
But, never mind. You got this.

 

[.38 Special]

Yes, these are .358. And, hard cast so they should be less or no leading. Correct?

If only it was so simple! Unfortunately, "hard cast" is more likely to lead, in most handgun applications. The bullet needs to "bump up" when fired, in order to perfectly fit the bore. The harder the bullet, the harder the "bump" needs to be - and a lot of "hard cast" handgun bullets are so hard they would be better suited to a rifle cartridge! So, unfortunately, the bullets in the OP are probably unsuited to lightly-loaded .38 Specials.

 

[tws3b2]

I have been reloading 38 Specials with lead bullets since 1970. The best way to reduce/stop leading is bullet to gun fit, not hardness. A rule of thumb is to use bullets the same diameter as the cylinder throats. You can slug the throats the same as slugging the barrel (throats must be larger than groove diameter). I started with a Lee Loader and used the data sheet but soon as I could I got a full reloading manual and a scale (still used dippers, but weighed most charges). One of the best manuals for both lead and jacketed bullets is the Lyman Reloading Handbook

Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun...

I appreciate your input.
I double check everything. I inspect the brass before loading, weigh the bullet before and weigh the power even though I have the plastic scoop. Then weigh the round when finished. I check makers websites for data.
And. I ask questions. I ask questions here and other places. Sometimes, Dumb questions. Sometimes I get answers even dumber than my dumb question. Most time I get great answers from knowledgeable people that are willing to share that knowledge.
And, Sometimes I get words from people that, Well, from people that just need to go set down and (whoops. Can't say that)
Thanks All

 

[.308 Norma]

Yes, these are .358. And, hard cast so they should be less or no leading. Correct?

No. Not necessarily.

If only it was so simple! Unfortunately, "hard cast" is more likely to lead, in most handgun applications. The bullet needs to "bump up" when fired, in order to perfectly fit the bore. The harder the bullet, the harder the "bump" needs to be - and a lot of "hard cast" handgun bullets are so hard they would be better suited to a rifle cartridge! So, unfortunately, the bullets in the OP are probably unsuited to lightly-loaded .38 Specials.

What .38 Special said.

 

[NMexJim]

delete

 

[NMexJim]

If you follow this link, you can get lots of loading info on all Hodgdon powders including Winchester W238.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

There is a 158 grain cast listed. The starting load is less than the XTP at 3.1 gr and the max is 3.7.

 

[ballman6711]

Yes, these are .358. And, hard cast so they should be less or no leading. Correct?

Like the others above have said, the answer is maybe. The base of the bullet has to obturate to seal the bore. If the bullet doesn't obturate completely, hot gas will go up the side of the bullet and contribute to leading. A higher BHN needs more pressure to expand enough to seal the barrel.

On the bevel base bullets, they are easier to get started into the brass during the seating process, but it's harder to get them to expand and seal the bore.

A .358" cast bullet will usually work well in a 38spcl/357mag, but you won't know for sure until you either slug your barrel OR load some up and try them. But, if your first loads were jacketed .357" and worked well, .358" cast SHOULD work for you. Keep an eye out for leading.

chris

 

[tws3b2]

If you follow this link, you can get lots of loading info on all Hodgdon powders including Winchester W238.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

There is a 158 grain cast listed. The starting load is less than the XTP at 3.1 gr and the max is 3.7.

Thanks, I use hodgdonreloading a lot. I compare their data to the 38spl data sheet I have just to make sure. Then I ask dumb questions to fill in the particulars.

 

[mdi]

I don't care for the term "hard cast". I remember when the term was used to differentiate between cast and swaged bullets, nothing to do with BHN. I believe newer caster/lead bullet users were convinced "harder is better" and commercial casters started giving them what they thought they needed. Thus many (most?) commercial, casters started casting their bullets with a BHN of 18+ But there is no "official" hardness level for "hard". I have used bullets of BHN 9 (DEWC) to Lyman #2 clone (BHN 15) in all my 38 Specials with 125 gr RNFP to 160 gr RN, and my 357 Magnum with 125 gr RNFP to 180 gr SWC. (although I did cast up some 124 gr TC of about 16-18 for a hard to eliminate leading 9mm pistol. No help, still leaded)...

 

[.45Coltguy]

I don't care for the term "hard cast". I remember when the term was used to differentiate between cast and swaged bullets, nothing to do with BHN. I believe newer caster/lead bullet users were convinced "harder is better" and commercial casters started giving them what they thought they needed. Thus many (most?) commercial, casters started casting their bullets with a BHN of 18+ But there is no "official" hardness level for "hard". I have used bullets of BHN 9 (DEWC) to Lyman #2 clone (BHN 15) in all my 38 Specials with 125 gr RNFP to 160 gr RN, and my 357 Magnum with 125 gr RNFP to 180 gr SWC. (although I did cast up some 124 gr TC of about 16-18 for a hard to eliminate leading 9mm pistol. No help, still leaded)...

Which is why I use Missouri coated cast in my revolvers. 12 BHN. Sure seems to work.

 

[.308 Norma]

I don't care for the term "hard cast". I remember when the term was used to differentiate between cast and swaged bullets, nothing to do with BHN. I believe newer caster/lead bullet users were convinced "harder is better" and commercial casters started giving them what they thought they needed.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I don't care for the term "hard cast". I remember when the term was used to differentiate between cast and swaged bullets, nothing to do with BHN. I believe newer caster/lead bullet users were convinced "harder is better" and commercial casters started giving them what they thought they needed. Thus many (most?) commercial, casters started casting their bullets with a BHN of 18+ But there is no "official" hardness level for "hard". I have used bullets of BHN 9 (DEWC) to Lyman #2 clone (BHN 15) in all my 38 Specials with 125 gr RNFP to 160 gr RN, and my 357 Magnum with 125 gr RNFP to 180 gr SWC. (although I did cast up some 124 gr TC of about 16-18 for a hard to eliminate leading 9mm pistol. No help, still leaded)...

I started using the phrase when two things happened: first, I got tired of being jumped on for using alloy blends and trade names on forums; e.g. 2-2-96, 30:1, 5-5-90 a.k.a. #2 Alloy, etc. Second, when mail order advertising started calling higher tin alloys “lead hard ball” or “hard casting alloys.”
So it’s casting lead and it’s alloyed to drop from the mold harder than either pure lead or antimonial lead. Hard cast.

 

[mdi]

Personally, I'd like to see more alloy descriptions like 20-1,16-1, 2-2-96, Lyman #2, etc. I check BHN on many of my "mystery metals", 98% of my handgun bullets, but I used to use known alloys for my cast rifle (kinda looking for the perfect alloy for rifle loads). On rare occasions I'll buy new alloy from RotoMetals and I like to know exact alloy, just 'cause.

 

[Steve51]

For 38 special loads, I like to keep the BHN on my cast bullets around 12. For .38 spl +P, I will use bullets with a BHN of up to 15.

For .357 magnum loads, I use cast lead bullets with a BHN of 18.

In my experience, using .358 cast bullets with a BHN of 18 for .38 special loads has always leaded my barrels, even when using Hi-Tek coated bullets. They are too hard for the lower pressures.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Personally, I'd like to see more alloy descriptions like 20-1,16-1, 2-2-96, Lyman #2, etc. I check BHN on many of my "mystery metals", 98% of my handgun bullets, but I used to use known alloys for my cast rifle (kinda looking for the perfect alloy for rifle loads). On rare occasions I'll buy new alloy from RotoMetals and I like to know exact alloy, just 'cause.

Yes. One of the things I learned a long time ago that seems to have become hated knowledge somehow (YouTube) is that hardness of the alloy is not as important as the composition of the alloy. The metal can be relatively soft or relatively hard but if the composition of the alloy is right for the speed and burn of the load, and it fits the bore and groove of the barrel correctly, it will run clean and true.

 

[Show Me]

Coated bullets are so slick but I'm still casting gobs of RNFPGC and no hassles from, well too many 357 revolvers and all three sizes of R92s