168 Grain Speer Match Bullets for 308 Winchester

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I find your posting of bent bullets throwing concentricity off enough to send rounds that far out at 300 very interesting, I’m trying to picture in my little pea brain how that would be possible with modern chambers cut to such tight +- shop tolerances. I have my thoughts but I am curious how you get there and if you subscribe to the in-bore yaw theory ?
Thx
J

I've heard about this since the early 90's when AR's took off in popularity in high-power competition. Ease the cartridge into the chamber a little before hitting the bolt release to keep from driving the bullet into the face of the chamber and "bending" the round.
 
I've heard about this since the early 90's when AR's took off in popularity in high-power competition. Ease the cartridge into the chamber a little before hitting the bolt release to keep from driving the bullet into the face of the chamber and "bending" the round.
Is it the chamber or the feed ramp?
 
I've heard about this since the early 90's when AR's took off in popularity in high-power competition. Ease the cartridge into the chamber a little before hitting the bolt release to keep from driving the bullet into the face of the chamber and "bending" the round.
I’m pretty sure a fella could indeed knock a round out of concentric how ever here’s my take on the effect of such an event.
1- chamber clearance of +_- .002 snd throat clearance of .0015 ish should realign a cartridge once in battery leaving runout pretty much of a non factor save a super accurate rifle such as a PPC for example and perhaps @Walkalong would weigh in on this with his experience.
2- what’s happing and this is my theory is that to off set or knock a loaded round out of kilter ( if that’s a word) takes side pressure and when that happens the neck tension/bullet hold has been changed, and that’ takes the load out of tune and quite evident on paper.
 
The 6.5 CM with the 140gr ELDM bullets leave a lot of the bullet sticking out. This may not happen with a 308W but does in my 6.5CM. I have not noticed this when shooting 223R/556.

I have started modifying the mag to get the bullet to release earlier to keep this from happening. So far I have not hit that magic point to prevent binding.
 
The 6.5 CM with the 140gr ELDM bullets leave a lot of the bullet sticking out.

I've often wondered about that. I load 143's for my friend, to shoot out of the AR-10 in 6.5CM I built for him. It's accurate enough, but we have not had an opportunity to really shoot it for best groups. I'll have to look into how they are chambering...
 
Keep using #34's in your gas gun. Use a more sensitive primer and hope the first time you get a slamfire, the muzzle is pointed away from anything that could get hurt. It will sure scare you, after dropping a round in the chamber, and hitting the bolt release, to create a divet just in front of your feet! I have used #34's for decades, and they shoot well in whatever rifle I used them in. This was a good 300 yard group with them in 30-06

Slam, I don't normally disagree with you... but...

The #34 is a Magnum-equivalent primer. I have seen the accuracy differences between the CCI #200 and #34 (those are what I use, I don't know how they would compare with, say, Winchester or some other primer,) and even the CCI #41 and #400 in 5.56mm, as well as velocity data and SD. There IS a difference. The biggest wakeup call was when I ran my test loads of TAC... all else being equal, there was a 2" difference in groups at 100yds between the #200 and #34 primer (in .308, shot out of my 24" Savage 10 bolt gun.) That was an extreme case, but even my standard plinking load for the M1a... there is an accuracy difference, at least for me, shooting off the bench. Now... once I stand up and shoot off hand? You are correct... the differences are not enough to write home about.

This is not to say you can't develop a good load with the #34... or any primer, for that matter. I still load them for my M1a and M1 Garand, but I quit using them for loads intended for my Savage bolt gun. That is also not to say you can't work up a good load with any good quality bullet... I agree with you there... but the OP seems pretty bent on exploring the absolute limit of accuracy out of his gun, for whatever it's worth.
 
My intent is to explore the best accuracy for the money. With that in mind I don’t know that I’ll buy the #34 primers anymore as they are more expensive if say WLR or CCI 200 primers are available. Availability is a pretty significant concern so I won’t say never so I’m also looking for some variety.
 
Slam, I don't normally disagree with you... but...

The #34 is a Magnum-equivalent primer. I have seen the accuracy differences between the CCI #200 and #34 (those are what I use, I don't know how they would compare with, say, Winchester or some other primer,) and even the CCI #41 and #400 in 5.56mm, as well as velocity data and SD. There IS a difference. The biggest wakeup call was when I ran my test loads of TAC... all else being equal, there was a 2" difference in groups at 100yds between the #200 and #34 primer (in .308, shot out of my 24" Savage 10 bolt gun.) That was an extreme case, but even my standard plinking load for the M1a... there is an accuracy difference, at least for me, shooting off the bench. Now... once I stand up and shoot off hand? You are correct... the differences are not enough to write home about.

This is not to say you can't develop a good load with the #34... or any primer, for that matter. I still load them for my M1a and M1 Garand, but I quit using them for loads intended for my Savage bolt gun. That is also not to say you can't work up a good load with any good quality bullet... I agree with you there... but the OP seems pretty bent on exploring the absolute limit of accuracy out of his gun, for whatever it's worth.

I primary use IMR 4064, IMR 4895, and AA & IMR 4350. I still have kegs of AA2520, a ball powder blended to have a pressure curve match with IMR 4895. CCI #34's work fine with all these powders.

Slamfires are real, and according to CCI, the #34's are their mil spec product line. They are less sensitive than the commercial primers, and so, they will slamfire less often than commercial primers. Once you experience a slamfire in an semi automatic mechanism, it will really startle you, and safety gets moved to the top of the priority list. Lots of outstanding scores have been shot with military NM ammunition, and NM ammunition with the older 174FMJBT removed, and an 168 SMK placed on top.

If you found a powder combination that does not work well with #34's, well, don't use #34's. So far, my #34's are doing well with everything I have on the shelf, and I have had slamfires, and am doing what I can, not to have more.
 
I primary use IMR 4064, IMR 4895, and AA & IMR 4350. I still have kegs of AA2520, a ball powder blended to have a pressure curve match with IMR 4895. CCI #34's work fine with all these powders.

Slamfires are real, and according to CCI, the #34's are their mil spec product line. They are less sensitive than the commercial primers, and so, they will slamfire less often than commercial primers. Once you experience a slamfire in an semi automatic mechanism, it will really startle you, and safety gets moved to the top of the priority list. Lots of outstanding scores have been shot with military NM ammunition, and NM ammunition with the older 174FMJBT removed, and an 168 SMK placed on top.

If you found a powder combination that does not work well with #34's, well, don't use #34's. So far, my #34's are doing well with everything I have on the shelf, and I have had slamfires, and am doing what I can, not to have more.
Looking at the velocity curves from load testing, with a double variable test of ocw curves stacked by primer is very interesting. How the velocity changes with charge rate changes a lot with different primers. Some primers produce linear lines and some that have more defigned steps.
 
Looking at the velocity curves from load testing, with a double variable test of ocw curves stacked by primer is very interesting. How the velocity changes with charge rate changes a lot with different primers. Some primers produce linear lines and some that have more defigned steps.

I don't have those software programs, nor do I have barrel pressure gauges. Be great to know what the exact pressures are in the tube.

The military uses magnum primers because they want their ammunition to go bang, even in the arctic. I have a lot of stick powder for my 308 and 30-06 ammunition and I purchased a keg of WC852, which is a ball powder, made for the 30-06 cartridge. The military does not really care what powder type, as long as it meets pressure and velocity requirements. I have been using CCI#34’s with great success in 30-06 and in the 308. My favorite primer was the old nickel plated WLR, which was a magnum primer. Winchester changed to a "brass finish" primer around 1999, claimed that it made the primer more sensitive.

The closest I have in a comparison of CCI#34’s and WLR is with the 30-06 data. And based on my data, I would say the WLR is “hotter”. If the CCI #34 is a magnum primer, the WLR is more of a magnum primer, at least using velocity as a guide.

Most of my later testing in 308 was done with surplus 4895 and CCI#34’s. Because I tested surplus powder, you can’t really compare to data with commercial grade IMR 4895. However I have some 308 data with CCI#34’s, with commercial powder. The velocities and charge levels are not that different from any other primer.

If I have loads I developed with WLR, I don’t change anything when I use CCI#34’s. Based on my testing, it is hard to prove much of a velocity difference between CCI #34’s and any other primer. Changes in cases provide as much offset as a primer change. Tula primers provided very tight extreme spreads, it is too bad that Government and Industry colluded to block their importation. Notice that with a 168 SMK, AA2495, and CCi #34 primers, I had a ten shot group with a Standard Deviation of 4, and a Extreme Spread of 12. That is very good in the 30-06, or any other cartridge.

30-06 26” 1:10 Wilson Match Barrel

168 gr Sierra Match 47.0 AA2495 wtd R-P cases CCI 34 OAL 3.30"
5 May 00 T=82°F

Ave Vel = 2720
Std Dev = 4
ES 12
Low 2713
High 2725
N = 10

168 gr Sierra Match 47.5 AA2495 wtd R-P cases CCI 34 OAL 3.30"
5 May 00 T=82°F

Ave Vel = 2745
Std Dev = 9
ES 28
Low 2728
High 2756
N = 10

168 gr Sierra Match 47.0 AA2495 wtd F-C cases WLR OAL 3.30"
5 May 00 T=82°F

Ave Vel = 2765
Std Dev = 10
ES 30
Low 2745
High 2775
N = 11

174 FMJBT White Box 1968 NM M72, Headstamp LC67 match, box velocity 2640 fps
14 Nov 2011 T = 68 °F

Ave Vel =2698
Std Dev =51
ES =117
High =2771
Low =2654
N=5

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI #34 OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel =2645
Std Dev =12
ES =42
High =2671
Low =2629
N =10

Very good group

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Tula 7.62 lot 1-10 primers OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel =2665
Std Dev =9
ES =28
High =2677
Low =2649
N =10

Excellent Group

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Wolf NCLR lot 18-09 OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel =2656
Std Dev =15
ES =36
High =2677
Low =2641
N =9

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Fed 210S OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel =2656

Std Dev =13
ES =34
High =2674
Low =2640
N =10

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM WLR (Nickle) OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel =2665
Std Dev =18
ES =60
High =2696
Low =2636
N =10

Excellent group

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI200 OAL 3.30
14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel =2680

Std Dev =14
ES =56
High =2712
Low =2656
N =10
V. Good group



4V6D74N.jpg


308 26” Barrel Ruger Tactical, 1:10 twist


168 Nosler 42.0 grs IMR4064 Lot2449 LC90 CCI#34 OAL 2.750"
27-Nov-06 T = 60 ° F

Ave Vel = 2594
Std Dev = 21
ES 67
High 2629
Low 2562
N = 10

168 Nosler 39.0 grs IMR3031 wtd Lot FE23B LC72 CCI#34 OAL 2.80" 27-Nov-06 T = 62 ° F

Ave Vel = 2513
Std Dev = 14
ES 51
High 2534
Low 2483
N = 10

168 Nosler 40.0 grs IMR3031 wtd Lot FE23B LC72 CCI#34 OAL 2.80"
27-Nov-06 T = 62 ° F

Ave Vel = 2568
Std Dev = 15
ES 48
High 2590
Low 2542
N = 10

168 Nosler 41.0 grs IMR3031 wtd Lot FE23B LC72 CCI#34 OAL 2.80"
27-Nov-06 T = 62 ° F

Ave Vel = 2619
Std Dev = 15
ES 52
High 2654
Low 2602
N=10

mHWna14.jpg
 
I primary use IMR 4064, IMR 4895, and AA & IMR 4350. I still have kegs of AA2520, a ball powder blended to have a pressure curve match with IMR 4895. CCI #34's work fine with all these powders.

Slamfires are real, and according to CCI, the #34's are their mil spec product line. They are less sensitive than the commercial primers, and so, they will slamfire less often than commercial primers. Once you experience a slamfire in an semi automatic mechanism, it will really startle you, and safety gets moved to the top of the priority list. Lots of outstanding scores have been shot with military NM ammunition, and NM ammunition with the older 174FMJBT removed, and an 168 SMK placed on top.

If you found a powder combination that does not work well with #34's, well, don't use #34's. So far, my #34's are doing well with everything I have on the shelf, and I have had slamfires, and am doing what I can, not to have more.

Again, I'm not saying #34's won't work... they certainly do, and, as I mentioned, it's what I use for my semi-autos. I quit using them for my accuracy handloads for my bolt gun, however, based on my own experience with accuracy testing... that is just my specific experience. I will likely not use #34's for the very few accuracy loads I work up for my M1a.

I also hear what you are saying about slamfires... safety should always be at the top of the list when preparing a handload. Yes, #34's are there to help prevent slamfires, etc, but, as you mention, the real purpose (in surplus ammunition) is to get the rifle to go bang even in extreme environments. The tangential issue with military ammunition would be it's use in machine guns, which introduces other considerations and remedies... like staked or crimped primers. As far as using standard primers in semi-auto handloads, proper brass prep is one of the keys to safety... making sure any primer, including #34's, et al, are seated flush or below flush is paramount. Making sure the rifle is serviceable and not worn or damaged... and particularly the M1/M1a family... is another.

The closest I have in a comparison of CCI#34’s and WLR is with the 30-06 data. And based on my data, I would say the WLR is “hotter”. If the CCI #34 is a magnum primer, the WLR is more of a magnum primer, at least using velocity as a guide.

Just because a primer is 'hotter' does not directly correlate into higher velocity. My first tests between standard and Magnum primers was with a standard load of H335 in 5.56mm. Although my Speer manual recommended a Magnum primer for H335 ball powder, the (CCI #450's) produced less velocity than the standard (CCI #400) primer, along with higher SD. Was it a significant difference? On paper, no... and I don't know about at the target, I didn't test these loads for accuracy, it was only to explore the differences in primers. But it did open my eyes up to the differences in primers, and their potential effects on my handloads... it's one of the reasons why I'll evaluate 2 different primers in my accuracy load workups, now.


My intent is to explore the best accuracy for the money. With that in mind I don’t know that I’ll buy the #34 primers anymore as they are more expensive if say WLR or CCI 200 primers are available. Availability is a pretty significant concern so I won’t say never so I’m also looking for some variety.

'best accuracy for the money' is a nebulous goal... but likely one most of us have to consider. For some people, it's 'best accuracy, money be darned', and for others it might be 'hit the bullseye for as cheap as possible.' It sounds like you are in the middle with me... that is, reasonable accuracy for reasonable money. The exception to that, these days anyway... is finding components for any money. ;) Be aware, though, that if you work up with #34's, and then change to WLR's or #200's, for example, you will very likely have to reduce a bit and work back up to find your accuracy node, again... using more components. At the end of the day, however, the bullet does most of the work as far as accuracy is concerned... 'spend the money on the bullet' is one of my reloading axioms.... consistent, of course, with my budget and availability. :)
 
I tested these with IMR 4064 as far as I can go. They’re starting to show ejector smears on the case heads and accuracy is not getting better. I will probably stick with the starting load or maybe try the third again to see if that flier was me.

Has anyone tried H335 with 308? The 8th increment I’m going to pull because the 7th was too high. I didn’t even try one of the 8th, which was 44.8 grains of IMR 4064, #34, and 2.80 COAL.
 
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