17Mach2

[gbran]

Anybody else shooting this little cartridge? If so, why and what are your opinions/experiences.

I use it for small edible game, small varmints, plinking and paperwork. I basically parked my 22lr's and haven't looked back. The trajectory and accuracy of this round is miles ahead of my 22's. I zero at 100yds, at 50yds, the little bullet only rises about .7 inches. On a calm day, this round more often than not shoots .75 to 1.25 inches at 100yds.

With this accuracy and the flat trajectory, I can hit most any small game or target out to about 115 yards looking right at the cross-hairs with no hold-over or adjustments. Head shots on squirrels out to 75yds is a snap.

The ammo is much more expensive than the 22's, but more accurate and to me, more satisfying. It is however, much cheaper than the 17hmr. I'm such a lousy shot, I have to find the most accurate thing I can find.

I'm using a Thompson G2 Carbine and a Marlin 917, both with trigger jobs and decent glass.

 

[Tim the student]

I have one, and I like it quite a bit. It is definitely lots of fun to shoot. I also have mine zeroed at 100, and wouldn't think about holdover until maybe about 120 - but at that point, I'm thinking more about wind than trajectory.

Taking it out to SD to shoot some prairie dogs next week. I'm looking forward to seeing how it does. I also love that it is much cheaper than the HMR - I just wish that ammo was available everywhere like the HMR is starting to be.

 

[husker]

PRAIRIE Dogs. Tim you are a lucky man. its something i would love to do some day

 

[Maverick223]

I am not too fond of it. I formerly owned a 10/17HM2 conversion kit and it didn't play well with the semi-auto, all-but required CCI ammo (which I hate), and was costly to shoot. It was, however, an accurate combination and afforded a much better trajectory. The biggest thing stopping me from investing in a second one (in a bolt gun) is the primary ammo manufacturer and the uncertainty of continued production. It looks like a more costly .17HMR, in a Savage 93R17-TRR, is going to be my replacement .17cal.

 

[mjyeagle]

i have a 17 hmr i love it you wouldent belive the damage a 20 gr bullet will do i used it for rabbit hunting one day and ruined a lot of meat it will shoot dime gorups at 75 yds and it is a savage not the most accurate rifle

 

[dougw47]

Better stock up on ammo...it is only going to get harder to find...and eventually go the way of the 5mm REM. It will never get any cheaper, trust me.

 

[jrobb45]

Is this your opinion, or do you have information from a reliable source?

best,
jr

 

[Maverick223]

^I have no evidence to support my theory, but I too believe the .17HM2 is destined for the chopping block or at least doomed to become relegated to membership in the obscure, hard to procure, expensive cartridge club. A shame, considering that it would make a great cartridge if offered in more rifles, with a greater selection of ammunition. The problem was timing, it came after the HMR which became the new super magnum of the rimfire world; the HM2 just couldn't break out of the shadow of it's bigger cousin to show what merits it held (IMO the paramount advantage was a favorable cost/performance ratio).

 

[natman]

Better stock up on ammo...it is only going to get harder to find...and eventually go the way of the 5mm REM.

Fortunately, the 17 HM2 is based on common components, the 22 Stinger case necked down to 17 and the same bullets used in the popular 17 HMR. So it will be pretty easy to set up a production run. I don't think it will end up like the 5mm REM, in the sense that there won't be any ammo available for years. I think a more likely scenario is that it will be like the 22 WRF, made as a seasonal item.

It will never get any cheaper, trust me.

What will these days?

 

[Maverick223]

I think a more likely scenario is that it will be like the 22 WRF, made as a seasonal item.

I think you are right, though the 5mm Rem. Mag. is now being produced in a like manner.

 

[cougar1717]

The popularity of the HM2 is just not there among a broad spectrum of shooters. You will probably always be able to find it, but relegated to the "niche" calibers.

 

[ArmedBear]

I have no evidence to support my theory

There's plenty: Ruger, Remington, Marlin, and CZ have all quit making guns chambered for it. Others never started.

That indicates a lack of demand, and the lack of guns will only reduce the demand for the cartridge. It may never be unavailable, assuming you live in a locale that allows mail-order, but I wouldn't buy a new gun in the chambering, myself. This doesn't make it a bad cartridge, of course, any more than the 16 Gauge is a bad shotshell. It just means you could be in for an expensive PITA if you get one.

 

[benzy2]

I guess it all depends on what you expect for ammo. 17hm2 doesn't cost any more than mid grade .22lr ammo, and often it shoots as well or better than the mid grade stuff. While it isn't popular in stores, the fact it uses stinger cases and abundant .17 caliber bullets makes it an easy cartridge to produce without excessive costs. Still, it isn't out of the question to find it for a hair under $6 a box online. Buy a couple thousand rounds now while its still fairly easily available and sit on them. It won't be a plinking rifle like the bottom priced .22lr but it isn't as if you can't purchase ammo. If anything I wish I would have bought my 917 in hm2 rather than hmr. For my uses the hm2 is a better fit.

 

[TOU]

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone on his board but...

Partially why the 17 HM2 isn't more popular in stores because many behind the counters spout their ignorant mumbo-jumbo and usually only have a very narrow spectrum of knowledge....at best. (I am not going to go on at length as to exactly why the HM2 is such a great little shooting round as it has been discussed ad nauseam but more to the other aspects of its vaibility etc....please see the 17 HM2 sections on RFC.) If they don't know much about it, it can't be good. Most have never even pulled the trigger on a full box let alone put it through it's paces. For the price and bang for the buck factor, it can't hardly be beat. The HM2 is slightly less powerful (about 12-13% less) than the HMR (same pill)...but yet is 50-67% less the price of HMR. (Even cheaper if you buy on line.) Less powerful ergo it "can't be worth shooting".

Funny thing is these same morons behind the counter will hypocritically tell you about how much bigger bang for the buck for volume shooting there is is with 22 LR vs 22 WMR. (Which for the most part is right unless you need the power for specific hunting applications.) Speaking of which, the price of 17 HMR ammo drove me back to 22 WMR for many applications. (I now have several 22 WMR's again as I bought a ton of ammo last year for $6-7 box. The new Vmax ammo for specific aplications...while not cheap, have also help close the gap versus HMR.) Again most of these same self professed experts behind the counter have never even shot or hunted with the HM2. They also spike it's price in their stores to get you to justify buying the HMR instead...which is why I refuse to buy ammo from these gougers.

I will fully admit that the HMR is superior in performance over the HM2...that's not even the point...or only point. Question that comes to mind, is at what cost?????? :banghead: The cheapest I have ever been able to get any HMR ammo in the past three years is $9.99/box of 50....most times it is $14-$17/box or more. On the other hand, I bought over 11,000 rounds of various brands of HM2 (mainly Eley) on line last year for between $3.25-$3.50/box 50...delivered. For the performance vs the cost ratio...it isn't even close. I had three HMR's, now I have one...and now have FOUR HM2's for me and my kids. For ground squirrels out to 100-125 yards it is SOOOO COOOOOL and shoots like a laser! Ground squirrels hate it.

From else where:

The 17 HM2 V-Max bullet still has 100 ft/lb of energy at 80 yards and is flatter shooting than the 22 RF rounds. I mostly shoot prairie dogs and order 17 HM2 ammo by the case for spring shooting when there are a lot of shoots within 80 yards. I have heard that Hornady was trying various powders so that the chamber-barrel pressure would work better in semi-auto rifles. I have bolt action rifles and am not a semi- auto fan so I dont have any problem with the 17 HM2 ammo. There seems be be a lot of people using the 17 HM2 rifles, see www.rimfirecentral.com but it is not as popular as the 17 HMR which 17 Gr bullet has about 100 ft/lb energy at 150 yards. I would bet the the 17 HM2 will be around for some time. Ammo To Go had 17 MH2 Eley ammo for sale at $ 139.95 per case of ( 40 boxes) 2000 rounds plus shipping.1-979-277-9676

GREAT Stuff!

I have no evidence to support my theory, but I too believe the .17HM2 is destined for the chopping block or at least doomed to become relegated to membership in the obscure, hard to procure, expensive cartridge club.

Not so fast.

A shame, considering that it would make a great cartridge if offered in more rifles, with a greater selection of ammunition. The problem was timing, it came after the HMR which became the new super magnum of the rimfire world; the HM2 just couldn't break out of the shadow of it's bigger cousin to show what merits it held (IMO the paramount advantage was a favorable cost/performance ratio).

Very right on several points! No offense to you Maverick or anyone else here on the board, but over the past 3+ years, I have heard so many arguments to why it is/was going to be dead...yesteryear. It hasn't happened yet and I really doubt there is a chance in h#!! it will happen in my lifetime. Do I think that it is less popular at the moment, no doubt as many manufactures of rifles over built the estimated initial demand. They overestimated its abilities in semi-auto...same goes for the HMR. BUT it is growing. (look up the HMR semi-auto issues with Rem 597's & 10-17 applications.) A huge difference is the HM2 was/is available in SOOOOOOOOO many more rifles than the 5mm ever thought of being. More rifles, more manufactures & more configurations....more variations of ammo as well. I mean seriously...they aren't going to stop the 17 HMR in our great grand-children's lifetime...its here to stay. They shoot the same pill...and use essentially the same LR brass/primer. How hard is it to make it even seasonally...both for rifles & ammo. It' not. I believe there is soooo many rifles out there than the 5 mm that it is a moot point. CZ has ceased and then continued HM2 production TWICE. They are nearing release of barrels for their switch barrel CZ 455's. If they are the only one's they will go like hot cakes. (Even if they are inferior to the venerable 452's. ) The 5mm both in brass, manufacturing procedures and bullets was soooo much more propriotority where the 17 HMR/HM2 is not....that goes for the rifles and the ammo. (FYI, 22 LR, 22 WMR & 17 HM2 Saami limits = 24,000 psi, I understand the the 17 HMR =27,500 psi and the 5mm = +37,000 psi....BIG difference in rifle manufacturing, especially on semi-autos.)

That all said, there isn't a chance in h#!! that it will even come close to competing or unseating the 22 LR in volume of ammo or rifle sales. SO what! (I have a pile of 22 LR's that I won't be getting rid of anytime soon although they are mostly bolt action.) Especially, until the manufactures (ammo or rifle) sort out the semi-auto loader fiasco. That can also be said for the 22 WMR, very few mainstream manufactures have had long standing 22 WMR semi-auto-loaders. Yes there are some, but many of those that make 22 LR semi-autos do not make them in 22 WMR...even more that make bolt actions do not. And even more so do not NOW make one.

While it won't be going away, it especially won't grow if those that know what great performing caliber do not step up and let there needs and desires known. I mean seriously...Look at yourselves...you want one but you still sit on the fence. If you and others that have your gut telling you you would love one would just act, the story would be different.

You will love this round...it is the biggest bang for the buck going in RF. Just go buy one, (I recommend CZ 452's...I have 4...actually one is a very rare 453) then buy a bunch of ammo on-line and enjoy the heck out of it. Worst case scenario, is you can have it re-chambered to HMR for $100 by a competent gun smith if you ever needed to. You will love this round, I have never heard anyone that shot it in volume that doesn't. (I will say though, if you are only going to shoot a box or three to just plain kill your target, you might as well just stick with the HMR. BUT...if you are planning on some volume shooting...go for the HM2. (Unless you just have extra $$$ to blow.)

What I hope is that at some point the ammo manufactures start to market it more in the info for what it is and bulk sell the ammo like 22 LR. If they did it would completely eclipse the HMR...which is what I think they are afraid of.

Maverick, I have read many of your post, just get one...you will be hooked.

 

[ArmedBear]

No offense, TOU, but even if you're right, and you certainly have a very good argument, the "everyone but me is totally stupid" card is overplayed on gun boards.

The HM2 is slightly less powerful (about 12-13% less) than the HMR (same pill)...but yet is 50-67% less the price of HMR. (Even cheaper if you buy on line.)

Yes. If I thought it will stay that way when the current stocks are used up, I'd certainly buy one. That's the bummer about rimfires: you have to rely on someone else to make your ammo.

 

[Gord]

I've considered a .17HM2 and have refrained specifically because I don't see the caliber going anywhere but away.

 

[gbran]

As stated before, I already have 2 guns chambered in 17m2. I also have a large amount of ammo stocked up. Starting fresh, I might not go out and buy 17m2 guns out fears expressed here. I am heartened that Hornady would step up the the plate and make them inc a lead-free offering.

I'll likely stock up on both the new lead-free versions and original versions.
I currently have at least 1,200 rounds of the lead offerings.

 

[Maverick223]

Maverick, I have read many of your post, just get one...you will be hooked.

I had one...and sold it (or rather the parts thereof as it was a 10/22 conversion kit). I liked it, but it had some feeding problems and the ammunition quality from CCI was horrible (squibs, overpressure cartridges, and large deviations resulting in failures and poor accuracy). OTOH a good 17HM2 bolt gun loaded with quality Eley brand ammo would have certainly performed much, much better. That said, I am still not willing to take the plunge and risk the uncertain supply of factory ammunition in a rimfire cartridge. The following is a photo of my 10/17 prior to selling the conversion (I will be replacing the parts with target grade .22LR components in the future):


Another problem is that .17cal. bore is a royal PITA to clean, but I can deal with that if chambered for a rifle that is easily cleaned (in other words: one that can be cleaned from the breach).

 

[dougw47]

I only have a few personal observations to support my post...no hard facts...just my opinion. I should have stated such, no crystal ball...just the way it seems to me. The local gun shop I worked at has not had any rifles since when I quit working there full time in 2006...as another poster said, conventional wisdom states if you are not selling rifles - they will cut back on producing ammo.

Having seen a few cartridges, and rifles come and go since 1960 (when I started buying rifles and ammo) and having problems acquiring ammo, it seems reasonable to apply to apply those lessons learned.

I never said I did not like the cartridge...they are a hoot to shoot! Flat, fast and explosive...the problem as someone said, they had lousy timing. When is the last time you saw a rifle in .25 WSSM? If there is a better rifle cartridge for deer in East or West Texas, please tell me what you think it might be. I talked to a Winchester rep and he told me they thought it was a flop.

I had a .22 Hornet that I reloaded my cases too many times...because until the Chezk's (sp?) started producing it and it got imported here...I could not find loaded ammo for two years, now there is limited production and I buy it when I find it. For a couple of years...I could not find surplus military .303 Brit ammo...now it is trickling in. And so on and so on.

Tried to buy ANY 7.7 Jap ammo? How many thousands/millions of those rifles are sitting in closets in the USA? Ammo Depo got in some hunting loads (Priv) and I bought them all...have not seen any since, but Graf Bro's claims to have brass. I don't shoot it much any more, have a good supply of brass...but heck! I may pick up a couple hundred.

For you, though...and all the people that have those rifles (and few pistols), I hope I am horribly wrong! Ammo and no money will get you through times of shortage a lot better than times of money and no ammo. I stand by my previous post...because it seems reasonable to me...but, again it is opinion, Let's come back in 5 years, 10 years...and if I was wrong, I am big enough to admit it.

Did not mean to step on anyone's toes...this is a discussion forum!

 

[TOU]

"everyone but me is totally stupid" card is overplayed on gun boards.

Sorry if it came across that way...the only thing I meant to be aggressive about is the many the gun shop re-sellers that I have spoken to that annoyed the heck out of me with their complete and total ignorance. Those that understood the price vs properties of the HM2 tended to agree but were either sad about it's lesser popularity or leery to be orphaned at some point...which of course I am convinced is highly unlikely. (I get it though...its business...what sells the most no matter why is king.) To me, when it comes to the longevity of the HM2, it is only a matter of how available it will be not IF available. But I could be wrong...

Yes. If I thought it will stay that way when the current stocks are used up, I'd certainly buy one. That's the bummer about rimfires: you have to rely on someone else to make your ammo

Fair enough...good point.

I had one...and sold it (or rather the parts thereof as it was a 10/22 conversion kit). I liked it, but it had some feeding problems and the ammunition quality from CCI was horrible (squibs, overpressure cartridges, and large deviations resulting in failures and poor accuracy). OTOH a good 17HM2 bolt gun loaded with quality Eley brand ammo would have certainly performed much, much better. That said, I am still not willing to take the plunge and risk the uncertain supply of factory ammunition in a rimfire cartridge.

I hear you Maverick...good points. I have read MANY MANY threads of HM2/HMR issues related to use in semi-auto. I also have a few good friends that have built several dozen reliable on the the HM2....even tried to get me to get one. As noted above though, all my HM2's are in bolt action. Outside of my Brno ZKM-611's and EBR's I'm really not much of a Semi-auto guy in rifles. My Brno 581 & CZ 511 are the only exceptions and rarely get out of the stable. I think the bolt actions is really where both the 17HMR & 17 HM2 shine the brightest.

Another problem is that .17cal. bore is a royal PITA to clean, but I can deal with that if chambered for a rifle that is easily cleaned (in other words: one that can be cleaned from the breach).

That is true, especially in the semi-autos.

Enjoyed the post gentleman!!!

 

[KzoneAL]

The M2 goin away has been beat to death for a couple of years now.Thier still makin ammo and arnt going to stop.Im glad there are people that arnt thrilled with the M2... means more ammo for the ones that love it.

 

[rangerruck]

it is , as a matter of fact, the greatest round in the history of metallic cartridges ever made, in this or any other Universe. I love this round, love it, and not only that , but if you get a mach 2 rifle, it will also shoot 17Aguila rounds; also a totally awesome round. I come from the school of smaller and more efficient, is allways better. The absolutely only thing better than this, is my remmy 241 gs model of the 22 browning take down, that is about 90 years old, and fires, 22 short only. with open sites, and the second step up on the rear ladder, it fires cb shorts, ... you read that right, into the same hole, with open sights, at 50 yds. It is so quiet, the sound of the clicking of the trigger drop/firing pin snap can be heard over the sound it makes leaving the bbl. But you can actually catch a glimpse of this round, as it goes downrange.
so if I want to smack any small game around with a laser shot, all the way out to 150 yds, the 17mach2, just can't be beat.
Unless that is, until I get a centerfire that fires 17fireball...

 

[rangerruck]

... As an aside, cci, horny, make these rounds, as does Eley, who also makes them for Remmy. A friend of mine, who owns a large ammo business, told me that Eley currently has 30 million rounds of this allready made/in the pipeline.

Don't think it is going anywhere for a while; I have about 10 k rounds of eley, and another 10 k rounds of Aguila ammo myself right now.

Usually, the eley/remmy combo is the most accurate.

 

[Maverick223]

As an aside, cci, horny, make these rounds, as does Eley, who also makes them for Remmy.

Additionally, the Hornady cartridges are loaded by CCI, which IIRC use Hornady bullets, so it is a bit of a collaboration. Both exhibited atrocious performance in my experience, while Eley and Eley/Remmington did pretty well. I never experimented with Aguila, but having used their other rimfire fodder, I do not doubt that it performs well (especially if Eley primed).

 

[trigga]

out of all the people i know, only one person has it. they got it when it first came out and loves it. great for a squirrel gun, but he says it's not so great on windy days. most people i know including myself have the hmr. i just got it and haven't even shot it yet but i see what carnage both the hmr and hm2 is capable of. kinda overkill for squirrel.