1851 Cylinder Does NOT Rotate to Lock Position

[ClemBert]

Some you may recall my complaint that my Pietta 1851's bolt is unbolting. Well, I ended up buying a common parts kit to replace the clock works.



It seems to have fixed that particular problem. However, I have a new problem. When I slowly (very slowly) cock the hammer all the way back the cylinder does not quite rotate far enough for the bolt to drop in the bolt slot. If I cock it quickly then its not a problem. I assume the inertia of the rotating cylinder when cocking quickly is enough to get the cylinder to rotate far enough for the bolt to lock into the slot. Does this mean the hand is not long enough to rotate the cylinder as far as it should? What's the solution fellas?

 

[BHP FAN]

Try your old hand.

 

[scrat]

hand problem. you need to take it apart and match the hands up to each other. may have to do some slight filing on the new one. you need to get them to look the same for the new one to perform good.
3 piece from the top

 

[ClemBert]

Does a longer hand make the cylinder rotate further?

 

[1KPerDay]

Also interested in that answer, as it seems to me if that were the case, then filing it shorter wouldn't help.

 

[BCRider]

as it seems to me if that were the case, then filing it shorter wouldn't help.

You're right. It really needs a slightly overlength hand that is then STONED down to move the cylinder just far enough without the bolt locking and jamming the works. This is a fussy bit of work where thousandths count for everything. A medium india slip stone combined with frequent test fittings is the tool of choice. No file or Dremel for this job.

 

[NCWanderer]

Clembert

A while back I had that same problem with my '58 Remy. and I was able to correct it by adjusting the tension on my main spring. I know a colt and a Remy are entirely two different animals, but it might work for you. I don't recall if I tightened or loosened the tension, but I haven't had bit of trouble since. Maybe one these wise old BP wizards on here can advise you if this fix might work for you and how to do it.

 

[Tommygunn]

Does a longer hand make the cylinder rotate further?

Yes, it will cause the cylinder to overtravel.

 

[mykeal]

If this only occurs when you bring the hammer back to half cock very slowly, is it really a problem???

 

[ClemBert]

If this only occurs when you bring the hammer back to half cock very slowly, is it really a problem???

I thought it was implied that the problem is with FULL cock. At half cock I don't see any problems. The bolt isn't supposed to lock at half cock. Maybe I misunderstand your question.

 

[OYE]

Does a longer hand make the cylinder rotate further?

Yes, a longer hand will cause the cylinder to rotate further. Also a " thicker" hand that is the same length will also. So your new hand is either shorter or "thinner" than the old one (or the frame hand slot is worn). We would assume your old hand doesn't work, either. If it does by all means use it. To " stretch" a hand, lay the hand on a hard flat surface and lightly peen the center 1/3 with a small punch. And I mean " lightly". You don't want to bend the hand or break it. A small amount works wonders here. To correct
for a " thin " hand or a worn frame, solder thin "shim stock to the hand
and dress it down. You also have the option of buying another hand and " hope" you get a longer one.

 

[scrat]

not always if the hand the metal part is too thick it wont engage the cylinder all the way. dont file it short in length. check for the with also tighten the main spring. for most 1851 you cant reall tighten the main spring but if you take off the grips you could take a piece of leather and fold it. where it is attached to the brass wedge the piece of leather between the brass and the wedge this will apply more tension on the main spring. it was a quick fix used often

 

[Hellgate]

FWIW, the gun parts shown in the first post are for a Remington (at least the hammer is).

 

[OYE]

not always if the hand the metal part is too thick it wont engage the cylinder all the way. dont file it short in length. check for the with also tighten the main spring. for most 1851 you cant reall tighten the main spring but if you take off the grips you could take a piece of leather and fold it. where it is attached to the brass wedge the piece of leather between the brass and the wedge this will apply more tension on the main spring. it was a quick fix used often

Thank you, We stand corrected on the "not always". We should have added that caveat.

 

[mykeal]

If this only occurs when you bring the hammer back to half cock very slowly, is it really a problem???

I thought it was implied that the problem is with FULL cock. At half cock I don't see any problems. The bolt isn't supposed to lock at half cock. Maybe I misunderstand your question.

My fault. I understood you to mean full cock and mis-stated the question. I should have asked, If this only occurs when you bring the hammer back to full cock very slowly, is it really a problem???

It's possible to OVER-fix a problem that isn't really a problem, if that makes any sense. How often, and for what reason, do you bring the hammer back to full cock very slowly? Do you really need to do that, and if not, what is it you're trying to fix?

 

[madcratebuilder]

It's possible to OVER-fix a problem that isn't really a problem, if that makes any sense. How often, and for what reason, do you bring the hammer back to full cock very slowly? Do you really need to do that, and if not, what is it you're trying to fix

+10

If it does not effect the normal operation of the revolver I would not worry about it.

 

[ClemBert]

I should have asked, If this only occurs when you bring the hammer back to full cock very slowly, is it really a problem???

Honestly, I should say that I need to play around with it a little more to determine under what speed of cocking the hammer back does the problem exhibit itself. If it only happens under extremely slow cocking then perhaps, as you point out, it is not a problem of a practical nature. If it happens occasionally under normal cocking then it is a problem. If very fast/hard cocking is required to avoid this issue then again it is a problem. Let me get back to y'all after I have a chance to play more with it.

In the mean time, could I get some feedback from y'all and let me know if your revolvers also do not lock when slowly cocking the hammer back. This feedback will give me an idea of if this is "normal" or not. If everyone comes back and says they don't see this on their revolvers then regardless of my further experimentation I will consider this to be a real problem. You just never know if the girlfriend or someone else is a "slow cocker". I'd hate to ruin someone's day because my revolver isn't functioning normal.

 

[BCRider]

OK, so here I sit typing at an unholy hour of the morning thanks to an upset tummy that won't let me sleep for the moment. Strange thoughts that would not occur during normal conciousness seem to be flowing.......

Since the new hand has the same effect as the old hand and since from what I've seen on my guns so far that the hand on these isn't all that subject to wear there's two other possible reasons for not indexing far enough that I can see.

The first would be that the pawls on the cylinder have worn. Or perhaps the pawls and the bolt notches on this cylinder where not indexed quite correctly.

The second possible issue is that the hammer is not able to be pulled back quite far enough to index the cylinder far enough for the bolt to catch. If the trigger sear was shortened too much or not made correctly in the first place or the sear hook on the hammer wasn't located correctly then the hammer would not travel far enough to allow the hand to rotate the cylinder far enough IF you just cock until the sear barely clicks. But since there is USUALLY a little over travel of the hammer available if you pull back the hammer until it can't move any further does that rotate the cylinder a little more and allow it to achieve full lockup?

Oddly enough, and this is likely old hat to you long time 1860 tuners, starting with a trigger sear that is slightly over length and stoning it down as part of the fitting of the action of these guns is not only a good way to alter the hand's travel to achieve perfect lockup but also would lower the rear sight notch by holding the hammer back a few degrees farther. The idea being to have the hammer let the sear engage the firing lip of the hammer just a degree or two before the bolt seats fully into the cylinder stop notches.

 

[ClemBert]

I took my own advice and checked all my cap-n-ball revolvers:

1. Ruger Old Army #1
2. Ruger Old Army #2
3. Uberti 1858
4. Pietta 1851
5. Uberti Walker
6. Pietta 1858
7. Pietta 1860

The Pietta 1851 is the problem child we are discussing. Of the other revolvers only the Uberti 1858 and Uberti Walker exhibit this phenomenon. I was kind of surprised to see that the Ubertis exhibit this issue. However, I should say that only under the most delicate, slow, and deliberate cocking conditions can I get them to do that. As such it would be impractical to duplicate this phenomenon on the Ubertis, especially at a range. Also, not every chamber everytime would exhibit this issue. Clearly, this isn't a real problem on those revolvers and I'd be surprised if y'all didn't find at least one of your revolvers in your collections that does this (unless all you own are ROAs).

Regarding the Pietta 1851, I did in fact verify it is a real problem. Even in medium speed cocking conditions this problem occurs. Only when you fast cock it at moderate to hard cocking does the problem go away. I guess it is time to tear it down and play with the old and new hands and do some measurements.

Since the new hand has the same effect as the old hand and since from what I've seen on my guns so far that the hand on these isn't all that subject to wear there's two other possible reasons for not indexing far enough that I can see.

We haven't established yet that the new and old hand have the same effect. I'm going to determine that soon.

 

[BCRider]

With coffee in hand and now fully awake I await the outcome of this.

This is why I hang out so much on forums like this. It would take me far longer and more mistakes to learn the ins and outs of how these guns work and the delicate balance of one part interacting with the next. Far better to let you guys do the legwork for me and just reap the benefits.....

 

[vulture]

I have a repro Remington that the sear when engaged holds the hammer back slightly less than it should, hammer is in the way of the topstrap cut sight groove, but in cocking the hammer comes back far enough to lock the cylinder correctly just then moves forward a little too far, which means my sear is short or my full cock notch is cut wrong, so a short sear won't cause the lock up to fail, it just means the hammer wont be back as far as it should, which isn't aproblem unless it lightens the fall enough to cause poor ignition, which mine does not.

 

[vulture]

By the way, if it were me I would just spring for a new hand. There are some venders on the net that have replacement parts for the different manufacturers out there, VTI is one that has them. They show the hand at $8 plus the shipping, not a bad price even if it doesn't solve the problem but honestly this is where I would start if it were me.

 

[Old Cannonballs]

FWIW, the gun parts shown in the first post are for a Remington (at least the hammer is).
__________________
Gun control= OSHA for criminals

Good catch. That picture is from Cabela's Web site (at least, the same photo appears there), and they ran the same photo for both the 1851 Colt Navy and the 1858 Remmie New Army replacement parts kit:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...en/common/search/search-box.jsp.form1&Go.x=11

and

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...en/common/search/search-box.jsp.form1&Go.x=23

 

[ClemBert]

Try your old hand.

UPDATE: I put the original hand back in. It solved the problem. The original hand must be slightly longer than the new one. Apparently, the original hand is long enough such that when I cock the hammer I can feel some tension as the hand attempts to rotate the cylinder before the bolt has retracted. Its not bad but still kind of annoying. I'm afraid to shorten the hand to solve that issue because I may end up with the problem I originally complained about in this thread.

Is there a way to make the bolt retract faster when cocking the hammer from the down position to the half cock position?

 

[mykeal]

You'd have to add material to the hammer cam leg of the bolt. Or to the hammer cam, so that it lifted the bolt leg earlier.