Cylinder rotation issues

[Big D]

Hey yall. I just picked up my 1851 R-M conversion, but am noticing a problem
with the cylinder bolt marking up the cylinder already, as well as the timing being off. When I cock it with a two-hand grip with the off hand semi-fast, I notice the cylinder under rotates. In other words, it doesn't rotate all the way and lock up. I have taken the gun apart and smoothed the bolt off because it was extremely roughly finished, but it didnt seem to help much. Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I doubt if the bolt is the problem. If the cylinder does not rotate around far enough, that sounds like the hand is too short, but that is pretty unusual. What happens when you cock it more quickly?

Also, specifically what do you mean when you say the timing is off?

And what do you mean about the bolt marking up the cylinder? I hope you realize never to lower the hammer from half cock, but instead to always bring the hammer to full cock before lowering the hammer. If lowered from half cock the bolt will bear against the cylinder and will mark a line around the cylinder.

The bolt should pop up against the cylinder in the tear drop shaped lead in to the locking notch. Many times a single action revolver will not be timed properly and the bolt will pop up before reaching the lead in. If it pops up centered in the lead in that is what is supposed to happen.

 

[Big D]

Yes it is marking the cylinder pretty bad, as well as when cocked fast, the cylinder doesn't rotate far enough to lock up. I switch out the botl and mainspring from my Uberti Hombre .357 and the cylinder rotates too far foward if cocked fast. I just received this gun yesterday and so far am pretty disappointed. Would a new bolt from VTI fix matters?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Like I said, I doubt it is the bolt that is the problem.

What happens when you pull the hammer all the way back? Does the hammer go to full cock? If so, what is the position of the cylinder? Can you peer between the cylinder and the frame to see what the position is of the bolt? I assume the cylinder has not rotated quite all the way around? By how much? Can you manually rotate the cylinder a bit farther so that the bolt pops into the locking slot?

Also, if the hammer goes to full cock, does it stop right there or is there any over travel to the hammer?

Some more things to check. Remove the cylinder and bolt. With the parts in your hands, does the bolt fit into the locking slots on the cylinder? Is it a nice tight fit? Is there much slop? If the bolt simply will not fit into the slots, that is a problem with the bolt or the width of the slots.

 

[Big D]

Yes the bolt fits. When I bring back the hammer, the cylinder will lock up and one of the slots will be directly even with the barrel. When I cock it fast, the slot is about a half and inch left center of the barrel/hammer.

 

[unknwn]

if it's new....

I would be more than a bit concerned that a gun that went through two quality control departments (Uberti -AND- Cimmaron) is showing such a problem. Your earlier posts (last week?) about ordering/receiving this conversion reproduction would convince me that the 5 year warranty/guarantee that the gun carrys for the original retail purchaser needs to be taken advantage of.
It being a cartridge gun, and it's approximate $500 purchase price would be enough to convince me that it needs to go back for repair.

 

[Old Fuff]

First of all, if the teeth on the cylinder ratchet are slightly different then it is quite possible that the hand may be too long or short for the new cylinder.

If the revolver is correctly set up for a particular cylinder the back of the hammer will hit the top of the backstrap at the same time the trigger drops into the full-cock notch. The hand will be adjusted so that it turns the cylinder from one cylinder notch to the next, and no further. The bolt will be set so that it starts to drop down as soon as the hammer starts to be cocked backwards, and be released just before the cylinder comes up to the notch. Last but not least, many of the Italian revolvers have bolt & trigger springs that are way too strong. You can substantially reduce cylinder marking by the bolt by replacing the original one with one made out of music wire.

 

[TheRodDoc]

There is only a couple ways the drag line happens. Rotating the cylinder by hand while bolt is on cyl. or the cyl. over shooting the bolt at full cock.

I suspect that instead of your cylinder not turning far enough it is really over rotating. The bolt didn't drop quite soon enough to catch it. You said it locked when cocked slow but not when cocked fast. The cylinder probably rotated over half way to the next chamber before stopping, making you think it didn't go far enough. And the bolt is resting on the cyl at that time causing part of the drag line and then you need to rotate the cyl. by hand to correct the out of position cyl. and finishing the drag line.

If this is what happened you need to adjust the bolt leg to let the bolt go a little sooner and or check the bolt spring. may be loose or weak.

 

[unknwn]

I am sitting here with my (properly functioning) R-M '51 revolver and will describe the cylinder notch location during it's operation.
The cylinder rotates clockwise (left -to- right) when viewed from the breech (hammer/grip/loading gate) end. when the hammer is full cocked there is an alignment of the upper most bolt notch (12 o-clock) (the left side/squared-flat/opposite of the tear shaped lead groove) with the left side of the hammer cutout in the frame.
If you must assist the cylinder's rotation toward the right (loading gate side), then I would tend to think that your hand is exhibiting signs of being too short.
You describe signs of the bolt dropping opposite? of the lead-in tear-shaped ramp/groove -do you not? -if so- then the cylinder is over-rotating (as just described), and you may be experiencing signs of the hand being too long (and rotating the cylinder -past- the expected bolt drop).There is also a possibility that the bolt timing is retarded, allowing the cylinder to spin past the expected stop of the bolt falling into it's cylinder notch and resulting in the symptoms portrayed by theRodDoc
I am only working with information supplied by my well-thumbed copy of Kuhnkausen's "Colt single action revolvers -A shop manual, volumes 1&2". From my experience, (and more info supplied in the Kuhnkausen book), you could also be experiencing problems with the flat spring of the hand being broken -or- weak. Then there is also a possibility that the bolt/trigger spring is problematic (cracked between legs?) -or- a combination of any of these (or some other as yet undescribed) difficiencies.
To think that ANY of the aforementioned problems are occuring to a factory-fresh cartridge firing hand gun is troubleing. You would be well advised to consider returning it for inspection and repair.
You haven't indicated whether you have done any live-fire testing of your -NEW-? revolver.
If you have NOT, then DON'T !
Until you have had the gun's operation investigated by either a trained gunsmith and/or repaired by either that professional or the factory/distributor's representative repair facility.it is just too dangerous to contemplate firing live ammunition

 

[Big D]

Well, I just ordered a new bolt and hand spring from VTI, so hopefully that will correct the problems.

 

[Big D]

I now have a problem with my Uberti 1873 Cattleman.....the gun will cock all the way, but will not go into full cock. It seems as if the hammer just will not lock. I have inspected all the internals, and nothing seems amiss. The gun was just working before I tore it down to inspect the internals.

 

[unknwn]

Your earlier message indicated that you dismantled this gun to try some of it's parts in your conversion revolver.
First, did all the original parts go back into the Hombre? Are you sure?
Second, is the bolt/trigger spring installed properly, and undamaged?
The bolt thrigger spring CAN cause problems with the hammer staying cocked since the trigger holds the hammer in it's full-cocked position.

 

[Big D]

I rectified the problem with my Hombre/Millenium....apparently the triggers of the 1851
R-M and the 1873 will not interchange. There is enough of a difference in the shape of the trigger that it will not work. Who'd a thunk it?

 

[Old Fuff]

Who'd a thunk it?

The Old Fuff for one...

Until recently, most revolvers were individually hand fitted - some slightly, and others considerably.

Single Action revolvers, both cap & ball and cartridge come under the latter description, then and now. Parts are often manufacturer and model specific, and new parts come oversized in certain places to facilitate hand fitting. For this reason “home tinkering” sometimes leads to grief, and a gunsmith who is experience in working with these guns may represent a better choice.

The only SA revolvers that come to mind as being exceptions are those made by Ruger.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Yup,

I'm not the least bit surprised. The hand was jamming against the cylinder ratchet teeth and not allowing the hammer to rotate far enough back to get to full cock.

As Old Fuff says, a lot of parts on these guns were custom fit and did not just 'drop in'.