1851 Pietta cartridge conversion

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CraigC

Sixgun Nut
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Jan 27, 2006
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West Tennessee
I wish this was a good story but it ain't. Six months ago I sent this thing to Gary Barnes for conversion to .45Colt, along with $1000 and a $500 order for Kirst conversion parts. There was a slew of work to be done, including action tuning, fire bluing the screws, a dovetail front sight, engraving the cylinder and a reblue.

A week ago Friday I got it back. The gun is gorgeous but what a mess underneath. The first time I cocked it, I thought I had put it back together wrong. Nope, the action feels like greasy sand has been dumped in it. It would barely function and the hammer wouldn't go all the way down. I thought, maybe it just needs cleaning. I took it completely apart and found a black, gritty metallic substance all in the action. It looked like carbon but it had never been fired until afterwards, so I can only conclude it was steel particles from the machine work. It was all in the hand raceway as well. I cleaned it up and while it was better, it was still atrocious. I thought at first it was the chintzy hammer spring he had installed/modified and replaced it with a factory take-off I had from a USFA. Better but still quite bad.

While I had it apart, I also found that the new two step hand from Kirst does not fit the hole in the hammer. The pin is too small and it allows for a lot of slop in the movement of the action. I put it all back together and the hammer still does not go all the way down. It has to be pushed down for the action to reset. You'll see this in the video. It is common practice to stone the hand raceway in the frame and that did not appear to have been done.

The conversion ring is very loose in the frame. There is a flat at the bottom of the ring that is supposed to rest against the water table. It should not move. Mine rattles.

The dovetail front sight was supposed to fit like dovetails are supposed to fit. I was told it moved halfway into the slot with thumb pressure and that I would be able to center it as I zeroed it. The sight moves freely in and out of the slot with no resistance.

The wedge is supposed to be fit where it pops in with thumb pressure and stays put. This one feels loose and rattles with thumb pressure. It needs a couple taps with the hammer to stay put and that is only temporary.

The gunsmith's response was to blame me for not knowing how to operate it, Kirst for making shoddy parts and Pietta for changing their guns. Never at any time did he take ownership of it and only after 30mins of talking down to me did he offer to take it back. He said the parts needed to be "broken in". I never heard of an action job needing a break in. What's the point of an action job? I declined and will either fit these parts to a different gun or find another gunsmith who knows something about customer service. It's a shame that my first gun video had to be about this.



Barnes%20conversion%2001.jpg
 
Sorry to welcome you to the club. My experience was somewhat better in that the pistol came back in line with expectations…but nearly a year after it was originally promised and only after the threat of litigation.
 
As a small business owner, I can honestly say that it would only take 1 phone call or email from an unsatisfied customer for me to be sending out a shipping label.
In today's world of social media and the speed at which bad news travels, a business owner can't afford any unsatisfied customers.
Gun owners, and especially the ones who spend the money for real custom work, are a fairly tight community. News travels very fast. Customer service and satisfaction are paramount.
I really hope this ends well for you @CraigC .
 
I was asked if I'd like it if someone posted such a review of my work without giving me the chance to make it right. I told them I'd never talk to one of my customers the way he did me in the first place. If I dealt with customers like that in my IT business, I wouldn't have an IT business.

That said, all is not lost. There are more fish in the sea and the gun is not unsalvageable.

On an even more positive note, I was going to send the guy a barrel to shorten and cut for a dovetail sight. A project in the works that involves some artful scratching, custom grips and 'may' get more than just internet exposure. We'll see but the package goes out to Jack Huntington in the morning instead. The other goes to the gripmaker.

I've got another project in the making that will result in an 1861 Navy Richards-Mason conversion with a proper .38Spl bore, custom grips and an aged finish. All done by yours truly. ;)
 
I have run a successful service business for 15 years because I listen to my customers.

It took him thirty minutes before he offered to even consider looking at it? And blamed you for not knowing how to operate it? And a custom revolver that needs to be broken in? None of that is acceptable!

I guess I can check that gun butcher off my list!

Thank you for the warning.

Kevin
 
CraigC

WOW...what a bad experience with a supposedly "custom gunsmith". To do such a lousy job of it in the first place and then top it off by blaming you and Kirst for the problems is an extremely poor excuse for sub-standard work.
 
From your story, he should contact you and tell you to send the gun back and he would make the gun right. What you appear to have is a job done by a kitchen table gunsmith.
Some gunsmiths have more work than they can handle. Therefore, they don't care if customers are displeased.

It's a vicious cycle -- they get a good reputation, the work flows in, they get careless and sloppy, they get a bad reputation, and then the work stops coming in.

Thanks to the OP for sharing his bad experience.
 
Some gunsmiths have more work than they can handle. Therefore, they don't care if customers are displeased.

It's a vicious cycle -- they get a good reputation, the work flows in, they get careless and sloppy, they get a bad reputation, and then the work stops coming in.

Thanks to the OP for sharing his bad experience.

Sad, but true, and not just in the gun world.
I forget where I heard this quote, but it has been my business model from day 1.
"Treat EVERY customer like they are your ONLY customer".

Any business that gets sloppy and stops caring about their customers when work is plentiful will regret it when the work dries up.
I see it in my trade every time the economy dips.
 
I did some playing around with other guns this afternoon. My first two percussion revolvers were Pietta 1860's I got in 2006. The rest are later guns, three more .44 Navies and a laser engraved 1860, from between 2013 and 2015. All the later guns are like the one above, the conversion ring is a sloppy fit on the frame. The two early guns, the fit is nearly perfect, enough so that I was able to shoot them. So it must be that Pietta made some changes somewhere between 2006 and 2013 and the Kirst parts are made for the earlier guns. I'll have to study the date codes to be any more specific.

I have yet to break them down and see if the hand fits the earlier guns better. I'm betting it does.


Some gunsmiths have more work than they can handle. Therefore, they don't care if customers are displeased.
This one's the opposite and I was trying to help him out by sending him whatever I could. Arrogance seems to be the biggest factor here.
 
Pity - that's a real nice looker you got there!
I'm biased as all get out though since the .36 Colt Navy was my first (sort of) real gun.

I took the time to visit Gary Barnes web site and it seems like it's mostly down.
 
First let me tell all of you that the very first words out of my mouth to Craig when he messaged me were:
“Craig you know that you have a 100% guarantee with me, as do all my customers”.
I will pay a “text to talk” copy of our conversation that I recorded which has been edited as text to talk could not keep up with Craig’s stutter.

In my defense I have asked Craig numerous times to send it back saying that I will fix anything, even letting him know that he could shoot it, put it back together (he had it torn apart) and if he scratched it I would fix that and reblue it. Craig refuses to let me make it right and would rather disparage me like he has done so many others in the industry.
Also in my defense I will say that I have built untold numbers of conversions in my 35+ years and I have made a few mistakes but only one enemy……

Hundreds of people will tell you that my work is the best and my guarantee better.
I did notice one person up the string here saying I had his gun for a year and that would be incorrect although there was a 6 month lag while I was in the heart ward for three month and then the rest was down time dealing with Kidney Cancer. Whoever this anonymous person is can message me at any time with no repercussions and I will extend $200 worth of free labor on any work they would like done, my phone number is (817) 219-2966, be a man and call me.

This will be my only post here, I’m not going to let Craig piss up my leg any more than this.

Here is a copy of the conversation since I cannot attach it:

Me: Craig, based on your message you seem very upset.

Craig: I’m not upset

Me: well first I want you to know that customer satisfaction is paramount to me and that you have a 100% guarantee on the work I did. What that means is you send it back for anything you don’t like and I will do what is necessary to make it right.

So first let’s talk about the dovetail. I machined both sights that you supplied down to 58 thousandths together so I know they are dimensionally the same. Then I cut the dovetail in the barrel until the sight would just enter the cut.

Craig: the sight slides right through.

Me: the sight and the barrel are both steel and in order to slide it in and out, you said you wanted to regulate both sights, you will have to locktite it in once you have it right.

Craig: how will I get it back out then?

Me: you use blue locktite and then heat it with a heat gun to break it loose.

You cannot make two steel parts, with dovetails that small, have an interference fit. That can only be done with a brass dovetailed sight.


Silence


Me: are you still there?

Craig: yes

Me: let’s discuss cleaning it to get the hammer to fall all the way

Craig: it was full of carbon

Me: that was a new unfired Pietta and I never fired it. How can it be full of carbon?

Craig: I don’t know but it was filthy (we then proceeded to discuss me using a honey colored synthetic trigger lube that was viscous and he claimed there was “something like Never Seize” inside it.

Me: what do you mean the hammer wouldn’t fall all the way?

Craig: when I cock the gun and pull the trigger and then let the hammer down real slowly it stops before going all the way forward.

Me: well you did specify a light hammer pull in the action job and the flat main spring could run out of power as the hammer runs through the arc if you slow it down manually and don’t let the retained energy of it moving through the arc help. Could it be that you have the wedge in too tight? If it’s hammered in as you said you could force the barrel to drag on the cylinder.

Craig: the wedge falls out unless I tap it with a hammer.

Me: the design of the kirst ejector is such that the tab in the spring no longer secures the wedge in the slot but I fit the wedge and it stayed in fine with thumb pressure.

What about the hand being loose in the hammer, what do you mean?

Craig: the pin on the hand is smaller than the hole (he’s raising his voice now and stuttering terribly).

Me: okay I didn’t make either part and unless it was so loose that it caused an issue I wouldn’t have even noticed it. I do lots of these with the new kirst hands and as long as it indexes the cylinder fully it shouldn’t be an issue.

Craig: the ring moves back and forth in the frame (I can hear him shaking the gun and a tick, tick, tick sound).

Me: once again I did not make the gun or the kirst parts. The only way that ring is going to rattle like that is if you cock the gun and shake it (thinking to myself how unsafe that would be).

But as I said at the start of this conversation, I will fix anything that you are unhappy with. Even things I have no control over because your satisfaction is paramount to me Craig. If you want me to shoot it, cycle the action until it runs like butter, reblue it, fit the sights, yes even things you didn’t pay for, I will do it to make you happy. All you have to do is send it back, I will even pay for the shipping both ways.


Silence


Me: are you still there?

Craig: yes I am messing with it

Me: do you want to shoot it and see how it works in? Please understand this isn’t a linebaugh hand built gun and I didn’t manufacture the parts, hell it’s not even the quality of Smith and Wesson but please shoot it, make a note or two, get back to me and send it to me to correct. As I said I will reblue it like new afterwards and ship it back at my expense.

Craig: okay then


The next day he removed me as admin on his FB page, deleted me from the page and Unfriended both my accounts.
 
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