Ratdog68
Member
Grassy-Ass Ameeeeeego !
1860 Army .44 Trouble Shooting question.
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Ginormous
Member
1860 shoulder stock: Dixie Gun Works has them - $175
I assume you did not replace the broken trigger/bolt spring; the characteristic of not going into full cock with the muzzle raised is consistent with that spring being broken/bent.as you described (if I understood it correctly).
The 'roller' in the hammer does not need to spin; it only needs to be round. Keeping the surface lubricated is all that's necessary.
You can lubricate the action parts with regular gun oil; these parts do not see the combustion temperatures in the cylinder and barrel so the 'no petroleum based oils' prohibition does not generally apply. However, mineral oil based lubricants/rust preventatives work just as well, and since they should be used in the combustion areas, there's no reason not to use them in the action as well.
The 'roller' in the hammer does not need to spin; it only needs to be round. Keeping the surface lubricated is all that's necessary.
You can lubricate the action parts with regular gun oil; these parts do not see the combustion temperatures in the cylinder and barrel so the 'no petroleum based oils' prohibition does not generally apply. However, mineral oil based lubricants/rust preventatives work just as well, and since they should be used in the combustion areas, there's no reason not to use them in the action as well.
Ratdog68
Member
No, not replaced last night. Now that he knows what's wrong, he can arrainge for buying a replacement. Last night was purely exploratory surgery and a good cleaning. When he gets the part in, I'll get it lubed up well inside with a proper oil. For now... the WD-40 residue is better than the gunk I found inside of it. LOL
Ratdog68
Member
Yes, so I see. I think he needs one.
Ginormous
Member
I believe he does too. Pics and range reports, of course. 
Ratdog68
Member
LOL The fun part was waiting until I had it almost completely apart (now... he's intently looking over my shoulder to see what I'm doing so he can have some sort of idea as to the steps I'm using... and voicing the order of things coming out and how they laid in there... ) and lookin' at him and sayin'.... "I've never seen the inside of one of these... I love learning on someone else's gun." (True statement too... I was learning on the fly). He just smiled and muttered under his breath "A-hole". Heck... I didn't even have any left over pieces when I was done !!!
What was even funnier was... he asked me if I'd brought my screwdrivers with me (when I got there). I told him to go get his gun. He says... it's right here !! (Sitting infront of him was MY 1858 NMA which I'd just laid down) I looked at him and said "Uhhh... we're taking YOUR gun apart... YOURS is the 1860 Colt version." He got this stupid grin on his face and says... "Yeah... I knew that" and went and got his gun.
Well... "leather class" never did get around to my working on my pattern for the holster I'm going to make for my 1858 NMA... (which is why mine was there)... but, I had more fun tinkering on/with his.
Ginormous
Member
Strangely, I've always found it easier to work on other people's property too. There have been numerous times I couldn't bring myself to crack a project open, until I had performed the exact same thing on something owned by another. With a friend like me, who needs an enemy? Right?
Das Jaeger
member
First time
I ever broke into a Colt was my buddies brass frame 51 Navy .
He broke the trigger-stop spring . Brought over the part he ordered from God Knwos where , and did not have the old one . The new one was WRONG , too long . Had to pull apart one of my revovlers to figure out what it should look like, then went to work with my files . It came out perfect . That was a stressfull lesson . Key was to buck up your confidence level and go for it . Now I am unstoppable , nothing will deter me from repairs . Its just a machine , I can build it if someone else can , with the right tools that is .
The only way to learn these and save hundreds of dollars in repairs is to do them yourself These Repros are so innexpensive and parts even cheaper , why not dive right in ? Do several repairs , then start workin on trigger honing and smoothin stuff out . There is ample litterature and WEB info of how to also out there . Dive in !
Das Jaeger
I ever broke into a Colt was my buddies brass frame 51 Navy .
He broke the trigger-stop spring . Brought over the part he ordered from God Knwos where , and did not have the old one . The new one was WRONG , too long . Had to pull apart one of my revovlers to figure out what it should look like, then went to work with my files . It came out perfect . That was a stressfull lesson . Key was to buck up your confidence level and go for it . Now I am unstoppable , nothing will deter me from repairs . Its just a machine , I can build it if someone else can , with the right tools that is .
The only way to learn these and save hundreds of dollars in repairs is to do them yourself
These Repros are so innexpensive and parts even cheaper , why not dive right in ? Do several repairs , then start workin on trigger honing and smoothin stuff out . There is ample litterature and WEB info of how to also out there . Dive in !Das Jaeger
Ratdog68
Member
Ooooops...
Ya mean? I should'nt've gone with giving it the Presidential Solution while I was in there?
Ginormous
Member
That's about enough tool for the task. Any task. 
Das Jaeger
member
And how
would you go about getting experienced MyKeal ?
It aint magic , its mechanics , and math , and a fine hand and eye . Aint hard , it just takes doing it enough . I also stated you should start small . Then end big , then keep it up , master it , perfect it , etc, etc ....Like I also stated its extremely cheap to replace parts on these repros .
How do you think gunsmiths learn , they do it , they ruin stuff too , they jump in thats how , over and over and over and over till they get it right .
You trust your safety to only a gunsmith ? Interesting .
Das Jaeger , nobody is a Master until your a Master of learning , its mental .
would you go about getting experienced MyKeal ?
It aint magic , its mechanics , and math , and a fine hand and eye . Aint hard , it just takes doing it enough . I also stated you should start small . Then end big , then keep it up , master it , perfect it , etc, etc ....Like I also stated its extremely cheap to replace parts on these repros .
How do you think gunsmiths learn , they do it , they ruin stuff too , they jump in thats how , over and over and over and over till they get it right .
You trust your safety to only a gunsmith ? Interesting .
Das Jaeger , nobody is a Master until your a Master of learning , its mental .
I don't believe anything I wrote said one shouldn't do one's own work, small or large, cheap or expensive. All I said was that there are some tasks that should not be done by inexperienced people. Not all, just some. Every gunsmith I know, in fact, every skilled worker I know, learned their craft from an experienced teacher, a craftsman. Some went to school, others worked alongside and under the eye of someone who had the experience being sought. That's where the learned how to properly dress a sear. They didn't work on a dozen until they got one right, leaving the mistakes to someone to endanger others with.
I did not say that you shouldn't take a Colt percussion revolver apart, clean it, replace parts, reassemble it and shoot it. I did suggest that if one decides the sear needs polishing that one should seek some help with that.
I did not say that you shouldn't take a Colt percussion revolver apart, clean it, replace parts, reassemble it and shoot it. I did suggest that if one decides the sear needs polishing that one should seek some help with that.
Das Jaeger
member
Its nice
if you have the oportunity to go to school, or learn under a Smith , for sure . Fortuntley I had both and learned from the Master more than school ever began to teach me even before entering school .
Nobody taught the Masters , they became Masters by doing first . Chicken or the egg here ? There was never a Master until someone Mastered it on their own to start with , right ? Then the Master might have taught it to someone else .
I don't recommend sear work either for the unexperienced . The only way I know of to learn it is to do it and try it out , under someone or not . If you want to learn it that is .
Sincerely , Das Jaeger
if you have the oportunity to go to school, or learn under a Smith , for sure . Fortuntley I had both and learned from the Master more than school ever began to teach me even before entering school .
Nobody taught the Masters , they became Masters by doing first . Chicken or the egg here ? There was never a Master until someone Mastered it on their own to start with , right ? Then the Master might have taught it to someone else .
I don't recommend sear work either for the unexperienced . The only way I know of to learn it is to do it and try it out , under someone or not . If you want to learn it that is .
Sincerely , Das Jaeger
BCRider
Member
So apparently being a "character" isn't a prerequisite to be a member here in the BP forum but it sure don't hurt.... No wonder we all get along so well....
I don't really see anything wrong with opening stuff and looking it over even by a novice. It's when the files, stones and angle grinders come out that it's time for a sober second look and a session of "measure three times before cutting" before laying hand to tool.
Das Jaeger
member
Well said BC
and for sure a bigger hammer won't fix it if the little hammer already ruined it .
Treade slowly doing any of the work no matter how minor is a good motto ..
If you think its beyond you , it probably is , but it doesn't mean you can't try it or learn to do it eventually . And there is only one way to do that , DIVE IN .
Das Jaeger
and for sure a bigger hammer won't fix it if the little hammer already ruined it .
Treade slowly doing any of the work no matter how minor is a good motto ..
If you think its beyond you , it probably is , but it doesn't mean you can't try it or learn to do it eventually . And there is only one way to do that , DIVE IN .
Das Jaeger
Ratdog68
Member
LOL Hopefully, it's characters (like a number of us here) that keep the rest coming back to be entertained a little bit. I know that I just try to not take myself so seriously that I forget to have fun while doing something. If'n yaz ain't havin' fun... what's da point in doin' it?So apparently being a "character" isn't a prerequisite to be a member here in the BP forum but it sure don't hurt.... No wonder we all get along so well....
I don't really see anything wrong with opening stuff and looking it over even by a novice. It's when the files, stones and angle grinders come out that it's time for a sober second look and a session of "measure three times before cutting" before laying hand to tool.
Ratdog68
Member
Update...
Traditions sent me a replacement Trigger Bolt Spring (#19) (which was broken). Today, I pulled Andy's gun apart and replaced the spring. The adventure continues. Exploded view included for reference.
Upon reassembling the gun, initially, when cocked, the trigger was not setting against the sear, but the cylinder would rotate and the hammer would drop under spring tension as soon as you'd let go of the hammer. That seemed to correct itself very quickly and then would cock the hammer if the gun were levelled as if firing. If it was laid over on it's side (gangsta style) while cocking, it wouldn't remain cocked and locked. Same was true if barrel oriented downward and upward. That appeared to have worked itself back to normal with some more cycling of the hammer.
Here's where the gun stands at present...
If I VERY softly cock the gun, the cylinder rotates into the properly timed location... but, the bolt does not move up and engage the cylinder.
The hand (#7) seems to engage and rotate the cylinder just fine... but, if the barrel is oriented upward... the hand appears to be pulling the "back peddle" affect to the cylinder since the bolt is not moving upward to engage the cylinder. I would suspect that the end play present of the cylinder moving on the base pin (#21) is causing the hand to back peddle the cylinder as the hand retracts... thanks to gravity pulling the cylinder against the hand.
With the barrel assembly off and the cylinder off the base pin... cocking the hammer and pulling trigger... I feel some very definate staging and creep in the trigger before it breaks from the sear.
History... this gun was acquired by my friend Andy "used". He accepted it in trade for some of his talents with leatherwork. He has never fired the gun. When I pulled the gun apart initially to inspect it... I found it gunked up with powder sludge and gun oil. The Trigger Bolt Spring was broken when I opened it up... and the portion of it that had broken off was nowhere to be found inside. The hold down screw was buggered up. So... it would appear my friend received a buggered up gun as the payment for his time. The long/straight portion of the Trigger Bolt Spring (which works with the trigger) is the portion of it that was missing. The replacement Spring I received from Traditions has a bit more arc to the portion that is like the remaining part (which operates the bolt) of the original spring. The new one is also just a hair wider than the shorter portion of the original (which operates the bolt).
The only thing I haven't cleaned (yet) are the nipples. I didn't have a nipple wrench intially... but, I do now. So... I know I'll be working with a clean/oiled action as this little adventure progresses.
His Jaegerness has been kind enough to volunteer to walk me through the troubleshooting/repair phases. Now... we'll see if I can follow directions. And, the good news... I get to practice on/learn on someone else's gun. 
WITH the owner's knowledge/permission. Cracking it open to clean the action was way beyond his comfort zone, so, he's happy to get some help.
As a side note... this Pietta 1860 has some very nice CCH on the frame, and will accept the carbine stock. The grips are a nicely grained matte finish to the walnut.
Traditions sent me a replacement Trigger Bolt Spring (#19) (which was broken). Today, I pulled Andy's gun apart and replaced the spring. The adventure continues. Exploded view included for reference.
Upon reassembling the gun, initially, when cocked, the trigger was not setting against the sear, but the cylinder would rotate and the hammer would drop under spring tension as soon as you'd let go of the hammer. That seemed to correct itself very quickly and then would cock the hammer if the gun were levelled as if firing. If it was laid over on it's side (gangsta style) while cocking, it wouldn't remain cocked and locked. Same was true if barrel oriented downward and upward. That appeared to have worked itself back to normal with some more cycling of the hammer.
Here's where the gun stands at present...
- Cock the gun with barrel oriented upward and it overrotates the cylinder's timing by about 1/3 of the hammer's width. Pull the trigger and the cylinder back peddles itself one complete chamber cycle (to the same 1/3 hammer width over-rotation). The bolt (#12) does not move upward and engage the cylinder... at all.
- Cock the gun with the barrel oriented: downward, level, and laid over (gangsta style) and the only change is, the cylinder does not back peddle as it does if oriented upward. The over rotation remains the same and the bolt does not engage the cylinder.
- I tried varying the tension of the hold down screw (#33) for the Trigger Bolt Spring. If good and snug, the cylinder over-rotates the cylinder to one half of the hammer's width. As I loosened the hold down screw to the point of no longer being able to hear the clicks while cocking... it corrected it only to the point of being 1/3 of the hammer's width of over-rotation. Snugging it down until I can hear the clicks again, but not as snug as before... it remains at the 1/3 width of the hammer's over-rotation.
If I VERY softly cock the gun, the cylinder rotates into the properly timed location... but, the bolt does not move up and engage the cylinder.
The hand (#7) seems to engage and rotate the cylinder just fine... but, if the barrel is oriented upward... the hand appears to be pulling the "back peddle" affect to the cylinder since the bolt is not moving upward to engage the cylinder. I would suspect that the end play present of the cylinder moving on the base pin (#21) is causing the hand to back peddle the cylinder as the hand retracts... thanks to gravity pulling the cylinder against the hand.
With the barrel assembly off and the cylinder off the base pin... cocking the hammer and pulling trigger... I feel some very definate staging and creep in the trigger before it breaks from the sear.
History... this gun was acquired by my friend Andy "used". He accepted it in trade for some of his talents with leatherwork. He has never fired the gun. When I pulled the gun apart initially to inspect it... I found it gunked up with powder sludge and gun oil. The Trigger Bolt Spring was broken when I opened it up... and the portion of it that had broken off was nowhere to be found inside. The hold down screw was buggered up. So... it would appear my friend received a buggered up gun as the payment for his time. The long/straight portion of the Trigger Bolt Spring (which works with the trigger) is the portion of it that was missing. The replacement Spring I received from Traditions has a bit more arc to the portion that is like the remaining part (which operates the bolt) of the original spring. The new one is also just a hair wider than the shorter portion of the original (which operates the bolt).
The only thing I haven't cleaned (yet) are the nipples. I didn't have a nipple wrench intially... but, I do now. So... I know I'll be working with a clean/oiled action as this little adventure progresses.
His Jaegerness has been kind enough to volunteer to walk me through the troubleshooting/repair phases.
Now... we'll see if I can follow directions. And, the good news... I get to practice on/learn on someone else's gun. WITH the owner's knowledge/permission. Cracking it open to clean the action was way beyond his comfort zone, so, he's happy to get some help.As a side note... this Pietta 1860 has some very nice CCH on the frame, and will accept the carbine stock. The grips are a nicely grained matte finish to the walnut.
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Das Jaeger
member
Hey
what is the end play on that gun anyways, never even asked ya that ?
How sloppy is your cylinder to forcing cone ?
Jaeger
what is the end play on that gun anyways, never even asked ya that ?
How sloppy is your cylinder to forcing cone ?
Jaeger
Ratdog68
Member
Using my calipers... the end play appears to be approx. .004" with the hammer cocked. I'll go snag up my feeler gauges to see what the gap is between the cylinder and the forcing cone. Yup.. .004" feeler gauge will go in, the .005" feeler gauge will not go in between the forcing cone and the cylinder's face.
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Smokin_Gun
Member
If you have any feeler guage stock you can make a hand spring very easily.
Springs are about .018" or so ... take an industrial razor blade (boxcutter type) Tap the old spring out of the squeezed crimp from the hand. Trim width first and cut to length...put a curve in the end to slide freely in the hand/spring channel.
It may take a couple trys...just use two small pliers to make bends, and try not to bend the spring at the hand.
Does the bolt come up through the frame with the cylinder removed? I've seen burrs in the frame cutout cause the bolt to hang up. I've also seen burrs keep the bolt from dropping back down with the cylinder removed so the gun wouldn't function unless you pushed the bolt down to free it. So, just make sure the bolt is free to move.
I have made a new hand spring from a bobby pin. You just have to find the right size in your wife or daughter's hair clip drawer. They are spring steel and so far, so good for me.
I have made a new hand spring from a bobby pin. You just have to find the right size in your wife or daughter's hair clip drawer. They are spring steel and so far, so good for me.
Das Jaeger
member
Welp buddy
looks to me with the last advice given from the boys , and what I have on PM's and the phone , your well on your way to fixin her now .
I am sure with a little patience and a soft touch your going to become a fine pistolsmith in time .
On a side note , I had to chuckle inside when I called you a gunsmith in a post days ago and you downplayed it when we were talking about putting a new bolt spring in for that 60 . You said that is hardly gunsmithing .........I knew it wasn't , and generally isn't , just a matter of dropping in a new spring Buckwheat ! But I wasn't about to tell you that till you were on your way to go get the gun yesterday ........I bet ya feel different about the spring now , and do consider it gunsmithing dont ya 
...Just like the hand spring I told ya to check yesterday too , they take a little fiddlin
But with all that said , I can say Grasshopper does pay attention well
I do still want you to Mic that bolt/trigger spring to make sure they sent you one in close to specs .
Das Jaeger
looks to me with the last advice given from the boys , and what I have on PM's and the phone , your well on your way to fixin her now .
I am sure with a little patience and a soft touch your going to become a fine pistolsmith in time .
On a side note , I had to chuckle inside when I called you a gunsmith in a post days ago and you downplayed it when we were talking about putting a new bolt spring in for that 60 . You said that is hardly gunsmithing
.........I knew it wasn't , and generally isn't , just a matter of dropping in a new spring Buckwheat ! But I wasn't about to tell you that till you were on your way to go get the gun yesterday ........I bet ya feel different about the spring now , and do consider it gunsmithing dont ya ...Just like the hand spring I told ya to check yesterday too , they take a little fiddlin But with all that said , I can say Grasshopper does pay attention well
I do still want you to Mic that bolt/trigger spring to make sure they sent you one in close to specs .
Das Jaeger
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