1860 Army .44 Trouble Shooting question.

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LOL Yup... I had NO idea that a Trigger Bolt spring could/would need fitting. I was under the impression that it just dropped in and you resumed play. Otay... add that piece to what needs fitting. Kewl... my first 'smithing lesson learned.

Otay... lemme get some coffee in me and I'll dismantle to the trigger bolt spring and get to measuring. For the sake of perspective, I'll reference a measurement as "fore/aft", "width", "height" in relation to how the piece fits into the gun and whether it's measurement is along the "fore/aft" (muzzle to grip), "Width" (left side/right side of gun) and "Height" (grip trigger guard to hammer)... unless there's other terminology guidlines I need to follow... related to 'smith-speak.
 
Trigger/Bolt Spring Specs (New one)

For the sake of trying to clearly communicate my work... I'll define the long/smoothly arc'd half of the spring to be the "Trigger" side, which lays on the left side of the revolver's frame (oriented in it's level/firing position). The "Bolt" side has the compound curves along the main arc and lays on the right side of the frame.

Measurements:

Spring metal thickness .031
Overall fore/aft length of Trigger half of spring 1.2655
Overall fore/aft length of Bolt half of spring 1.580
Overall width of entire spring .328
Width of trigger half of spring .122
Width of bolt half of spring .112
Height of trigger half of spring's arc .144
Height of bolt half of spring's arc .144
Height of the bolt's arc on the tip of the compound curve .080
Fore/aft length of bolt's arc compound curved tip .350
Fore/aft measurement from outter most part of the spring heel to the union of the two halves is .360 (If deducting this length from the overall of each halve's length is of importance)

Did I miss sumpin' ?
 
Hee hee hee

Howdee ,
Well , don't get me wrong , sometiems they indeed do just drop in , and should be very close , but this is Italy were talking , the Land Of Wine and Vacations :D ......Were also talking Pietta not Berretta qualtiy here or QC of Berretta .
Main measurement you need that I am wondering about is the long leg of the spring , don't care about much else , to start with . GO ahead and do the short leg too . :D How much it's bent is irrelevnat at this point , etc , etc ...
You can use a piece of flat bar stock or metal ruler to lay on the round end of spring to pull your measurements from with you calipers , or Mic to be straight to the legs . Obviosuly the long elg is easy to emasure , but carefull not to cock your mic or calipers for the little leg .

Will be off and on today here , but with allthe genious's here you shoudl be able to runthsi guns oon I hope unelss you need more parts or to fab a new Hand Spring, which I am almost positive you will :D

Jaeger
 
No

you didn't miss anything , your just anal retentive or a butt-hole, you choose :neener:

I gotta cook Eggs benedict up right now for the msises and I , then will be back :D

jaeger
 
OLD/broken Trigger/bolt Spring specs

Ratdog68 said:
For the sake of trying to clearly communicate my work... I'll define the long/smoothly arc'd half of the spring to be the "Trigger" side, which lays on the left side of the revolver's frame (oriented in it's level/firing position). The "Bolt" side has the compound curves along the main arc and lays on the right side of the frame.

Measurements in BOLD are for the OLD/broken spring

Spring metal thickness .031 .032
Overall fore/aft length of Trigger half of spring 1.2655
Overall fore/aft length of Bolt half of spring 1.580 1.181
Overall width of entire spring .328 .328
Width of trigger half of spring .122
Width of bolt half of spring .112 .1151
Height of trigger half of spring's arc .144
Height of bolt half of spring's arc .144 .0875
Height of the bolt's arc on the tip of the compound curve .080 .066
Fore/aft length of bolt's arc compound curved tip .350 .350
Fore/aft measurement from outter most part of the spring heel to the union of the two halves is .360 (If deducting this length from the overall of each halve's length is of importance) .369

Did I miss sumpin' ?
Click to expand...

Missing measurements are due to the trigger half missing.
 
Das Jaeger said:
you didn't miss anything , your just anal retentive or a butt-hole, you choose :neener:

I gotta cook Eggs benedict up right now for the msises and I , then will be back :D

jaeger
Click to expand...
Kewl... not knowing what's important to the diagnostics... figured I'd give ya as much as I can and let ya filter out the non-important shtuffs.

More coffee's in order 'bout now. And, gonna make me a bowl of grits... yes, with butter/pepper... NO brown sugar (like I've seen some do).

BTW... Jason was kind enough to send me TWO trigger/bolt springs... so, I have a back-up if I screw this thing up. :D
 
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Thats

workable , your certaintly not too long on the trigger leg , either one , bolt leg doesn't matter on length . Your fine , it should work with that as is .
Check the Hand spring like I mentioned , condition etc .
Report back .
:D

jaeger
 
Hand Spring...

Das Jaeger said:
workable , your certaintly not too long on the trigger leg , either one , bolt leg doesn't matter on length . Your fine , it should work with that as is .
Check the Hand spring like I mentioned , condition etc .
Report back .
:D

jaeger
Click to expand...

Over all condition of the hand and hand spring description:

with the pivot rod that the hammer marries into on the left side as you look at the hand... the hand's upper edge (where it makes contact with the rear of the cylinder) is not square with the sides of the hand. The left side is taller than the right side. The left side measures .967 and the right side .959. The hand's width is .113 where it contacts the rear of the cylinder. The hand spring is not inline (vertically) with the hand, but, rather overhangs the left side of the hand. The hand's width, plus the amount of overhang measures a total of .147. The shape of the hand spring's tip is not square, nor is it round, it's more of a lopsided cone shape... the peak is right of center in relation to the centerline vertically. The overall height of the hand spring's tip to the base of the hand is 1.095. The hand spring protrudes higher than the hand.

The wear on the face of the hand (nearest you as you look at it in the same orientation described above) indicates more wear on the right side of the hand. Rotating the top towards you to allow you to see the TOP of the hand... the top of the hand is NOT a right angled rectangle... the L/R corner is a greater than 90 degree angle... the U/R corner appears to be a less than 90 degree angle. The front/back measurement of the left side of the face is .197 and the measurement of the right side is .191. The hand spring's width is .106
 
Well... it's working fine now...

I must've gotten something installed just a little "off" when I took it apart to clean it a couple of months ago. While doing the hand spring measurements... I took it completely apart and did a reassembly of each part... checking how it was laying/working. It went together beautifully and upon complete reassembly of the gun... it's timing is spot on again... the bolt is working correctly and locks the cylinder the way it's supposed to in all directions of orienting the barrel. The trigger pull's feel has improved, although still creeps a tad.

All nipples have been pulled and checked for being clean and threading condition. The nipples turn freely, then firm up a bit, and then free up again as they seat snug.

So... once again... the problem was the loose nut behind the screwdriver ! :banghead: My buddy Andy has a correctly working 1860 once again. Thanks guys... appreciate the help... and Jaegermeister... sorry to've wasted yer time to help me establish spec measurements. Second gunsmithing lesson learned... double check your assembly work before deciding you have a problem. :banghead: It sucks to be ign'rnt. :D Little by little... I'm workin' on changin' that though.
 
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LoL !

What , you think your the first to put something back together wrong , HA ! :D
I am layin money you had a burr or some crapola hanging up the Cylinder stop like HellGate said , or the hand was cluttered up , or both .
You do realize you as the Gunsmith of your friends gun is entitled to shoot it for function without permission right :D ......and anytime in the future your at the range together . :D ..thats how that works :D
And for waisting my time , I get to shoot it too :neener:
Actually it wasn't any waist of time , I enjoyed every minute of it , all five minutes of actual work measuring my known perfect pieces :D ......Pay was crap though :D
Alrighty then , another 1860 out on the fireing line of life doin what its been doin for 150 years . :D

Das Jaeger
 
Hellgate said:
Does the bolt come up through the frame with the cylinder removed? I've seen burrs in the frame cutout cause the bolt to hang up. I've also seen burrs keep the bolt from dropping back down with the cylinder removed so the gun wouldn't function unless you pushed the bolt down to free it. So, just make sure the bolt is free to move.

I have made a new hand spring from a bobby pin. You just have to find the right size in your wife or daughter's hair clip drawer. They are spring steel and so far, so good for me.
Click to expand...
Sorry Hellgate... missed your post. I think that what was going on with the bolt was that it just needed a little side nudge to seat on the pin/screw in it's correct position. Once I pulled the trigger, hammer, hand off and did a little tinkering... everything just laid back in the way it should. No burr appears to be present. Thank you.
 
Das Jaeger said:
What , you think your the first to put something back together wrong , HA ! :D
I am layin money you had a burr or some crapola hanging up the Cylinder stop like HellGate said , or the hand was cluttered up , or both .
You do realize you as the Gunsmith of your friends gun is entitled to shoot it for function without permission right :D ......and anytime in the future your at the range together . :D ..thats how that works :D
And for waisting my time , I get to shoot it too :neener:
Actually it wasn't any waist of time , I enjoyed every minute of it , all five minutes of actual work measuring my known perfect pieces :D ......Pay was crap though :D
Alrighty then , another 1860 out on the fireing line of life doin what its been doin for 150 years . :D

Das Jaeger
Click to expand...
My buddy (Andy) will be pleased to see his 1860 coming back home with a thorough cleaning done on it. I tore it all down again and cleaned everything up, removing all the original gun oil. Pulled the nipples and cleaned things well. No more gunk in/around the nipples. I also burnished some metal polish inside the barrel/cylinder bore/chambers with a cleaning jag and patches. All the blued metal polished up with metal polish too. The base pin got a film of moly fortified synthetic grease, the rest got a film of synthetic gun oil. It really looks sharp now after the polishing up. It's amazing how much "brown" surface crud comes off the blued metal and gets a nice gleem to it when buffed off with a soft cotton cloth afterwards !!

Here's Andy and I after we finished up making a pair of show chaps for "Junior Miss Rodeo Washington". This'll be him getting a little bit of pay-back for his help with them.

AllDone-1.jpg
 
Ahhhhh Tandy

Leather , a fun place to shop :)
Nice Chapps man ! For a girl , do they fit , hee hee hee :neener:

Hey buddy , I always take my new revolvers out for a spin with the Aeronautical metal pollish , like Mothers , to get rid of the rusting in the blueing process they use , especialy Italian blueing , the salts and rust are heavy on their process and nobody takes it out in the factory either . It is amazing what comes off on your patches and rags with a slight buffing with the stuff . And of course as you know , don't use it on CCH and don't rub too hard on the blueing either . :D ....But what a difference it makes in keeping these guns clean and smooth . It keeps all the fouling down to a minumum too , just like a clean Jet , smooth man smooth . Fouling has a much harder time clinging to pollished metal .

I bet that 1860 runs smooth too now with it oiled and pollished and greased huh ? Oh yeh :D That tis the only way to keep them :D ...Dont rely on Wonder-Lube or andy other Yellow gunk to operate those guns as well as moly grease , it aint gonna happen , ever . :D

It's a happy day in Colt-Ville !

Jaeger
 
Yup... Tandy Leather is a good place... and Andy's good with the leather working tools and relates the skills to use them well also. He's good people.

The chaps turned out great. That was one happy 14yr old.

Agreed... I couldn't believe the nasties comin' off the blueing the first time I worked a gun over with it. It certainly does make a big difference. I generally reach for Flitz, or Peek (probably identical formulas) when I'm gettin' after 'em.

LOL I did NOT touch the CCH on his 1860 with the polish... besides... the CCH is just gorgeous on this gun. I'm tempted to keep this one and get him a new one and tell him just how bad his gun got hacked up. (Kidding). :D

I don't think this poor thing had EVER been torn down and had the innerds cleaned and oiled !!! I opted for synthetic oil only the the internals. The surfaces probably need honing before it sees any moly. All that fouling was pretty rough on things

One question... is pulling the nipples adequate to be able to just dry fire the gun while watchin' tube? I'm not wanting to mash the nipples while working in the action's internals on my new ones.
 
Absolutely not !

Don't do it , tis really hard on the sear and hammer and everything else dry firing without nipples . Don't dry fire it with nipples either . Suck it up and fire it with caps on , or thumb the hammer when you are letting go of the trigger . Just work the action a few hundred times in front of the TV and you'll be good to go man . Better yet, just bust open a tin of caps and blow them all . They are way cheap and in ample supply here at least .

By the way , I always pollish every single piece of metal inthe innards, surfaces of the side of the frame isnide, the hand, bolt, everyhtign with metal pollish to smooth it all out . Just with Pollish , don't be roundin stuff out with sand paper and such :banghead: It will amaze you how sweet they function when they get pollished out , especaily Ubertis .
Geta q-tip adn put pollish on it to rub up and down onthe hand slot up inthe frame, that is the leading area it drags . Pollish it out and the hand will move the way it does on a real COLT Model P they make now , smoooooooth .
Jaeger
 
Kewl... glad I decided to inquire first. I had a hunch that dry firing wasn't a good thing... just wasn't sure about with the nipples removed. Working the action while keeping thumb on the hammer is how I've been doing it so far.

Gotcha... wasn't sure how to correctly polish inside... figured I'd get some coaching on it before I messed around inside with only ignorance being my guide. :D Grassy Ass Ameeeego.

'Dog-gone
 
Snow problem

Amigo :D
You can use your trusty moto-tool to pollish too if you sooooo desire , but be carefull not to heat stuff up too much or round stuff off , they don't like rounded things in them , sharp and smooth is what they crave . :D

das Jaeger
 
Easiest is to buy the hand and spring assembly.
You will have to fit the hand to time the cylinder.
Start out making it the same as the old one.
These vary in length.
Buy an extra and a trigger spring or two.
Springs can be problematical on these repros-mebbe same-same originals.
Dunno. I like them a bunch.
 
Wolff has trigger/bolt springs for the 1873 Colt that also fit the repro 1851's,1860's and with a little work the Remmies as well.They are round 'music wire' springs instead of flat springs,and they last for everrrr...
 
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