1860 R-M Conversion Headache.

[James K2020]

I posted about a month ago regarding the cylinder binding after firing so I grabbed some different ammo and went for another go. First two shots seemed fine and then the cylinder started locking or binding somewhere. I could turn it by hand but it was still not right. I then noticed that if I pointed the barrel straight down it wouldn't bind, if I kept it level it would. That's not right either.

But then the nightmare happened. On a newly loaded cylinder the first round sounded weak. So did the next few until nothing. The cylinder was completely locked now and there were still 2 live rounds in there!
So I broke it down in the field (high desert ) and lo and behold there was one projectile protruding from the cylinder, which is why it wouldn't turn, AND several lodged in the barrel. A little scary.

So being frustrated and demoralized I packed the parts away (after removing the 2 live rounds of course) and proceeded to use the same ammo in my brand new never fired El Patron Competition. Worked beautifully and flawlessly. What a gun. All rounds no problem, right on target, very accurate-I shot it much better than I expected. Ran about 20 of the 38 specials I was using on the 1860 plus another 5 357s just for grins. No issues. I've been using this batch of ammo with all my SAs and never had a situation like that on the 1860.

I kept most of the spent casings from each gun. The El Patrons are the larger batch on the left and the primer strikes were dead straight, deep, and a full diameter. The 1860's on the right, not so. They are off center, skinny, and not that deep.

I then eyeballed the firing pin as it protrudes through and it looks like it angles at about 45 degrees downward. To me it appears that there is no way the pin is striking the primer correctly. I think the pictures kind of tell that story but would be interested in any thought before I start the shipping back to Cimarron. I was able to remove the one projectile from the cylinder but the others remain in the barrel.

 

[Buckeye63]

Dang

 

[1KPerDay]

You're going to have to have those bullets drilled out by someone who knows what he's doing IMO.

 

[ontarget]

Wow, you may be the luckiest guy on the forum this week.
Not to be preachy but you should have stopped after the first round that sounded different. That could have been a bad ending for your gun and your hand.
Search the word KABOOM!

As to the gun and ammo, was it factory rounds or hand loads?

 

[Mizar]

There is no way an off center strike to just ignite the powder partially and give you a weak shot - it will either go on, or it won't fire at all if the hit is too far off center, there is no in between. You have a faulty batch of ammo right there and it should be discarded immediately. Neither the cylinder binding (a whole different issue), neither the angled firing pin, or the off center hits are to blame here - this is a badly loaded ammo and should not be used.

You failed to mention that those are reloads, probably yours - be more careful with the powder charge next time, OK?

 

[Rebel Dave]

Do not shoot jacketed ammo in open top revolvers. You should be using SOFT LEAD.
Also lube your arbor.
That revolver being a Uberti, probably is suffering from the "Uberti Short Arbor Syndrome", and must be remidied, or you will continue to have binding, between the cylinder, and barrel. They all come with short arbors, and people have a bad habit of pounding the wedge in too tight. This actually causes the barrel to bend upward, causing binding. The arbor needs to be lengthened a bit, so the barrel goes on to the same depth on the arbor every time, giving you about .003- .005 inch clearence between the barrel, and cyinder. After the arbor is taken to the proper lenght, just a light tap on the wedge is all that is needed on assembly. All arbors will have different dimensions, so I cannot tell you how much you need to add to it. I usually silver solder a piece of brass on mine, some guys use washers, but they fall out.
There is an old (read only) sight that expains it real good.Google Uberti Arbors, or such.
Hope this helps you some
Dave

 

[1KPerDay]

As to the gun and ammo, was it factory rounds or hand loads?

I assume handloads due to mixed brass and insufficient powder charge.

 

[ontarget]

I didn't catch the mixed brass until I blew the pic up on my phone. Quite obvious when I could actually read the head stamps.
Bad deal right there.
I know that progressive presses work nearly perfectly but I'm so paranoid of a light or even a double charge that I still use a single stage. I visually inspect every single charge before seating a bullet. I have caught light and heavy charges, even no charges. One can't be too careful.

 

[Master Blaster]

Rule # 1 in shooting when you have a soft report or squib you always check to make sure the barrel is clear before you fire again. Never try to shoot out a stuck bullet.

You are lucky the gun did not explode in your face. Firing another round into a stuck bullet is a recipe for a blown up gun.

I don't believe the off center firing pin hits are the culprit in your squib loads, as the primer went off with enough force to ignite the powder and drive the bullets into the barrel.

If you take a good thick solid brass rod and clamp the frame solidly in a good vise, you may be able to tap the bullets out. Tap tap tap, use a small amount of force on each blow. Be patient. If you use too much force it could expand the bullets and make them harder to get out.

 

[mnrivrat]

I don't know what your past experience has been with shooting, reloading, etc. , but I encourage you to read through the posts here a couple times and learn from them. All due respect intended.

 

[ontarget]

I then noticed that if I pointed the barrel straight down it wouldn't bind, if I kept it level it would. That's not right either.

That almost sounds like a problem with the hand. Maybe your hand spring is bad. Pointing at the ground would cause the hand to fall into place via gravity. Lifting the muzzle would cause it to fall back out of place.

 

[jdavis123]

Definitely caused by too light a powder charge. As others have said, you are really lucky that you didn’t blow up your gun or hurt yourself. Some years ago, I had a bullet lodge in my barrel due to a squib load. When I noticed the light report and lack of recoil, I immediately stopped shooting and put the gun away. Later, on my work bench, I took a wooden dowel and tapped out the offending bullet. After which, I checked the barrel inside and out for bulging which often happens with squibs. A bit of unsolicited advice: If you use and automatic powder measure, be careful with it. You can get too heavy a charge as well as too light ones. Check each case for the proper level of powder before seating your bullet. It might save you from a lot of anguish.

 

[dbluefish]

At a local range(in NJ)with friend and father of friend who did his own reloading. Shot a few rounds from a revolver(long ago so do not remember brand)and then heard a pffft! New to shooting but that triggered(sorry)a 'put the damn thing down, lol' reaction! Glad I did. Reading you folks' posts I guess light charge. Bullet half way down the barrel. I never shot with the father again. Live and learn, I guess.

Semper Fi

paul

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Do not shoot jacketed ammo in open top revolvers. You should be using SOFT LEAD.
Also lube your arbor.
That revolver being a Uberti, probably is suffering from the "Uberti Short Arbor Syndrome", and must be remidied, or you will continue to have binding, between the cylinder, and barrel. They all come with short arbors, and people have a bad habit of pounding the wedge in too tight. This actually causes the barrel to bend upward, causing binding. The arbor needs to be lengthened a bit, so the barrel goes on to the same depth on the arbor every time, giving you about .003- .005 inch clearence between the barrel, and cyinder. After the arbor is taken to the proper lenght, just a light tap on the wedge is all that is needed on assembly. All arbors will have different dimensions, so I cannot tell you how much you need to add to it. I usually silver solder a piece of brass on mine, some guys use washers, but they fall out.
There is an old (read only) sight that expains it real good.Google Uberti Arbors, or such.
Hope this helps you some
Dave

---
The slotted screw on the barrel where the wedge goes in is to set the proper depth for the wedge stop. Beating on any gun part is counter-productive. A light tap is more than sufficient. Personally, I use the double-palm method - put the wedge in place and squeeze between both palms until it stops. It helps to wear shooting gloves since I'm not the Hulk and don't like to bleed on bluing. Never had an issue with my Uberti open tops, BP or R-M. Maybe I'm just lucky?

Dead on right about the jacketed bullets, by the way. Soft lead only and load to 1880's velocities. Those newer open-tops are built to mimic the older ones, but proofed for nitro. New or not, jackets need too much pressure to work in an open-top revolver. I was warned by an uncle who reloaded not to use too light a load in an older revolver. Slug the bore and check for signs of corrosion from BP or corrosive primers. Even if it is proofed for nitro, a lot of old ammo got used in those old guns because it was what people had and times were tough. Too light a load and you stick bullets, even soft lead ones, in rough barrels. I suspect the OP was loading too light "to be safe" and didn't know copper jackets need a whole lot of oomph to get down a bore because they don't deform and build friction.

 

[James K2020]

Cimarron has committed to taking back the revolver. They are waiting on new barrels from Uberti possibly by year-end and will then provide an RMA and start with replacing the barrel and check timing. There is considerable play in the cylinder when compared to my other Open Tops.

 

[Tommygunn]

I have a similar Uberti Richards Mason conversion. Your guns firing pin looks exactly like mine and mine works a-ok.

Your problem is not due to the firing pin. An early poster suggested the arbor might be too short and the wedge thus be in too far. This may be the problem.

I also wish to add my voice to those who've previously said do not use jacketed rounds in open-top revolvers! I use lead bullets, either what are called "cowboy" loads, or black powder loads. GeoDudeFlorida is exactly on point in this.

Also, be careful and listen for unusually soft reports when firing. As has been pointed out guns can explode from firing additional rounds and these revolvers might easily be even more vulnerable to do so if you fire with an obstructed barrel.

 

[CraigC]

Do not shoot jacketed ammo in open top revolvers. You should be using SOFT LEAD.

While it may be sacrilege to some, myself included, to use anything but cast or swaged bullets, there is no basis for this. It is a factory produced modern cartridge revolver, made from the same steels as any other cartridge revolver of the same make. They are fully compatible with any standard pressure factory load, regardless of what the bullet is made from. Not just mousephart "cowboy" loads.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

While it may be sacrilege to some, myself included, to use anything but cast or swaged bullets, there is no basis for this. It is a factory produced modern cartridge revolver, made from the same steels as any other cartridge revolver of the same make. They are fully compatible with any standard pressure factory load, regardless of what the bullet is made from. Not just mousephart "cowboy" loads.

---
Modification to my previous post: As CraigC points out, the manual only says, "NEVER use cartridges marked 'High Speed' or 'High Velocity'.” It doesn't mention "lead only" but it does say not to use reloads - they all do - it also says, "Use ONLY COMMERCIALLY loaded cartridges that have been loaded in accordance with SAAMI-C.I.P. standards." I'm assuming that means standard velocity jacketed, as well as standard velocity lead, but nothing faster than standard velocity in either. When I said NEVER use jacketed, I misspoke. I'm modifying that to say, if you're curious if a particular Uberti Richards-Mason conversion open-top performs well with jacketed bullets, it's worth experimenting with. I did with an open-top 1851 .38Spl/L.C. Uberti and the results were very disappointing. I used (standard velocity??) Remington Green-n-White box 130gr. FMJ from the LGS (bulk pack) which is rated at 790fps in the 1851 because it was my most accurate factory load in the Cimarron 1873 bird's-head grip .38Spl/L.C. I bought about the same time. It's a mild load and excellent brass (Remington). There were no stuck bullets in my case with the 1851 but accuracy was awful and there was some keyholing so I stopped shooting it after the first 5 and didn't bother trying that ammo again. With my target LSWC's it shoots beautifully and is fairly accurate - for a revolver with the rear sight cut into the hammer. I asked a gunsmith I've known for decades - and who often works on older revolvers - who told me the ammo isn't the problem, the gun is the problem. The Uberti, Pietta, Armi San Marco, etc. Italian Spaghetti Revolvers are designed to 1880's standards, mass-marketed and mass-produced to maximize profit, not longevity, strength or accuracy. Yes, they are proofed for nitro pressure curves, and optimized for low-pressure lead loads because that's what the CASS shooters - the market - uses, but that doesn't mean they're safe with modern defensive ammo or ammo that deviates from the 1880's theme they're marketed for. That's what is always going to shoot best in them: cowboy lead. They aren't really for jacketed so that's not going to shoot best - or possibly even safely. He also pointed out there were inherent reasons the open-top cartridge-revolver design didn't last very long.

That was my experience but YMMV.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Wow! Wonder what those "inherent reasons" were? Must have been a "cost of production" thing . . .

They are proofed to a higher pressure than US standards . . . didn't know they had LSWC's in the 1880s ! ( just funnin' . . . a little . . . lol!)

Mike

 

[CraigC]

The Uberti, Pietta, Armi San Marco, etc. Italian Spaghetti Revolvers are designed to 1880's standards, mass-marketed and mass-produced to maximize profit, not longevity, strength or accuracy.

Not all Italian guns are created equal. You can't judge a new Uberti by an ASM, or even a 30yr old Uberti. That said, there is no factual basis for this.

Yes, they are proofed for nitro pressure curves, and optimized for low-pressure lead loads...

How are they optimized for low pressure loads?

.....but that doesn't mean they're safe with modern defensive ammo or ammo that deviates from the 1880's theme they're marketed for.

How does the gun know the difference between lead and copper when the pressure is the same?

They aren't really for jacketed so that's not going to shoot best - or possibly even safely.

Why?

He also pointed out there were inherent reasons the open-top cartridge-revolver design didn't last very long.

This ain't 1870. We have 150yrs of learning and advances in metallurgy. Not to mention modern CNC machining. There are lots of reasons why 'that' logic does not apply to new guns.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Wow! Wonder what those "inherent reasons" were? Must have been a "cost of production" thing . . .

They are proofed to a higher pressure than US standards . . . didn't know they had LSWC's in the 1880s ! ( just funnin' . . . a little . . . lol!)

Mike

---
1887. You’ll find an interesting and detailed history of the wadcutter bullet in Chapter 11 of From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners by Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate.

 

[45 Dragoon]

---
The slotted screw on the barrel where the wedge goes in is to set the proper depth for the wedge stop. Beating on any gun part is counter-productive. A light tap is more than sufficient. Personally, I use the double-palm method - put the wedge in place and squeeze between both palms until it stops. It helps to wear shooting gloves since I'm not the Hulk and don't like to bleed on bluing. Never had an issue with my Uberti open tops, BP or R-M. Maybe I'm just lucky?

The screw is there to retain the wedge and prevent loss. It isn't a " depth setter". The arbor length is the ultimate decision maker for the depth of the wedge.

I don't think "drive the wedge out / drive the wedge in" (Colt's instructions) is a reference for a "light tap". A light tap is certainly not " more than sufficient " to impart tension enough to link the two assemblies of an open top revolver together. ( harmonics plays heavy in the open top) ( I dare say the " double-palm" method isn't sufficient either . . . except maybe for the stringing up of a nice hammock lol).

Luck or not, all your open top pattern revolvers have short arbors, you have just shown how "forgiving" the extremely robust qualities and excellent design of these revolvers is.

Mike

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The screw is there to retain the wedge and prevent loss. It isn't a " depth setter". The arbor length is the ultimate decision maker for the depth of the wedge.

I don't think "drive the wedge out / drive the wedge in" (Colt's instructions) is a reference for a "light tap". A light tap is certainly not " more than sufficient " to impart tension enough to link the two assemblies of an open top revolver together. ( harmonics plays heavy in the open top) ( I dare say the " double-palm" method isn't sufficient either . . . except maybe for the stringing up of a nice hammock lol).

Luck or not, all your open top pattern revolvers have short arbors, you have just shown how "forgiving" the extremely robust qualities and excellent design of these revolvers is.

Mike

--
Patent #1,304 dated 8/29/1839. In this patent, Colt talks about the "key" or wedge. "As the key C is to act laterally as a wedge to draw the receiver and the barrel into contact, it is of importance that it should be checked when forced sufficiently far in, or the receiver might be wedged up and prevented from turning. For this purpose I insert a screw, e, Fig.3, into the steel button f, which is attached to D D... The head of this screw, overlapping the end of the mortise, receives the wedge and checks it. By turning this screw the force of the wedge may be tempered. In fig. 5 g is a spring-latch on the under side of the key, which catches upon D when the key is forced in and prevents its accidental removal." [emphasis added]

 

[45 Dragoon]

--
Patent #1,304 dated 8/29/1839. In this patent, Colt talks about the "key" or wedge. "As the key C is to act laterally as a wedge to draw the receiver and the barrel into contact, it is of importance that it should be checked when forced sufficiently far in, or the receiver might be wedged up and prevented from turning. For this purpose I insert a screw, e, Fig.3, into the steel button f, which is attached to D D... The head of this screw, overlapping the end of the mortise, receives the wedge and checks it. By turning this screw the force of the wedge may be tempered. In fig. 5 g is a spring-latch on the under side of the key, which catches upon D when the key is forced in and prevents its accidental removal." [emphasis added]

Yessir, that patent has to do with a revolving rifle and is dated 1839.
While I'm sure the first design for an open top handgun wasn't as refined as discoveries along the way uncover (thus bringing multiple patents), it is at least a basis to proceed. Nearly a decade later with the introduction of the Walker, the binding possibilities of "a wedge too far" had been addressed as examples show through the '50s, '60s and into the '70s.
I'm not about splitting hairs, but it's not the correct use of the wedge screw to limit the depth of the wedge placement. With a correct arbor length, you can't drive a wedge in far enough to cause cyl. lockup . . . which is the whole point of having the arbor correct in the first place. It's the only way you can reassemble the revolver and it be the same setup each time you do so. My revolvers maintain the same bbl /cyl clearance because of it as does all who have had this correction. Of course, you can do as you please but misinformation should always be addressed.

Mike

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Yessir, that patent has to do with a revolving rifle and is dated 1839.
While I'm sure the first design for an open top handgun wasn't as refined as discoveries along the way uncover (thus bringing multiple patents), it is at least a basis to proceed. Nearly a decade later with the introduction of the Walker, the binding possibilities of "a wedge too far" had been addressed as examples show through the '50s, '60s and into the '70s.
I'm not about splitting hairs, but it's not the correct use of the wedge screw to limit the depth of the wedge placement. With a correct arbor length, you can't drive a wedge in far enough to cause cyl. lockup . . . which is the whole point of having the arbor correct in the first place. It's the only way you can reassemble the revolver and it be the same setup each time you do so. My revolvers maintain the same bbl /cyl clearance because of it as does all who have had this correction. Of course, you can do as you please but misinformation should always be addressed.

Mike

---
Like I said, maybe I've just been lucky these past forty some odd years and have never had a open top revolver with a short arbor, regardless of maker. I've also never had a cylinder bind up or a barrel shoot loose. Glory be, I hope I never do!

I'm not young nor a novice to single-action revolvers, Colts or knock-offs, and the above patent is for revolving handgun designs - it's online and I have it pulled up now, as can anyone on the internet. No offense taken or intended, we're all just passing on personal experience but, saying a patent reference for other people to examine and draw their own conclusions from is "misinformation" is more than a bit snarky. I have a few Uberti and Pietta open top revolvers - C&B and cartridge - and haven't had a problem with them once being deburred and having some of the rough machining inside cleaned up. But I've never shook one loose or had to use a hammer on a wedge to put one together. A light tap on the far end is typically enough to start the wedge out for disassembly, no banging or drama involved.