1866 Winchester in " Heaven's Gate"

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elhombreconnonombre

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Given Michael Cimino's reported obsession with old west authenticity, the production costs of which doomed this epic to failure economically, I was rather surprised to see Kris Kristofferson's well healed character enter an outfitters shop in Cheyenne, Wy asking for a 1866 Winchester. After all, the events depicted in this movie concerning the Johnson County wars was circa 1890.

I just hope the History Channels post Texas revolution Texas Ranger movie on Memorial Day gets things right. I have scoured all the production stills I can find on the web, and have yet to find a mocked up Springfield trapdoor thankfully. The side arms I have seen are all single shot ml pistols. Hopefully we will see some Patersons sported by the Jack Hays character and his Rangers if that part of the Ranger history is covered.
 
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I saw a 'paleo' movie a couple of months ago where they used an atlatl. I was surprised that Hollywood even knew they had existed.
I can't remember the movie .. just the atlatl.
 
The idea of a movie set in the 1890s showing Henry 1860 and Winchester 1866 rifles in use is not as bad as movies set in the 1860s showing Winchester 1892s and 1894s in use. ;)

Frankly I would not be surprised that someone in the 1890s who was familiar with the Henry 1860 or Winchester 1866 (or who already had a cache of .44 rimfire ammo) would opt to chose an "obsolete" rifle.

I remember "Heaven's Gate" mostly from the razzing it got in the turkey awards or cult movie books. I had to look it up.

According to Internet Movie Firearms Database IMFDb on "Heaven's Gate" (http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate):

Deputy John L. Bridges (Jeff Bridges) is seen with a 1866 Yellow Boy (no handguard, but King side load gate visible).

Sheriff James Averill (Kris Kristofferson) first uses a Henry 1860 but later uses a Winchester 1892.

Looking in the Sears, Roebuck & Co 1897 catalog for ammunition, I find ".44 Flat No. 8297. Winchester, model '66, rimfire, 28 grains powder, 200 grain ball, 50 in box, 62c;..." with the H head stamp. So in the 1890s there was a market for .44 Henry Flat rimfire cartridges (Henry 1860, Winchester 1866 rifles and S&W No.3, Colt .44 rf Open Top revolvers). It was still a choice for enough people that Sears kept it in stock.


[That there atlatl started the whole light projectile at high velocity beats heavy at low argument--precursor of the 9mm v .45 debate. Some things never change.]
 
Well there ya go. If Winchester still made the 66 in that time frame, I guess Cimino's reputation for authenticity holds true. I remember seeing the movie during its first run at the theatre. It was long, but a good flick. I really liked Jeff Bridges shoulder holster rig.
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I'll have to agree with most comments, but... I'm sorry, IMO Heaven's Gate was the most excruciatingly, painfully, long drawn out Western I have ever seen, and it was made at a time when Kristofferson was a country rock star. I had to make myself watch it in its entirety to make sure I was not discounting it for "quality".

I would rather watch Kevin Kostner in "Open Range".

Now that's a shoot-em-up if I ever saw one. I know Costner seems to have shot 3 cylinders full of rounds during the excitement without reloading, but it is still a great, violent, period-authentic movie, IMO.

Flame on!

Jim
 
I'm thinking that Sam Peckinpah's "The Wild Bunch" was fairly historically accurate. It took place after 1911, thus the Colt 1911 and other firearms of that period were represented. I have not watched it in a while but I think a Maxim machine gun was in the movie, which is probably not historically correct.

One of my favorite movies.
 
I'll have to agree with most comments, but... I'm sorry, IMO Heaven's Gate was the most excruciatingly, painfully, long drawn out Western I have ever seen, and it was made at a time when Kristofferson was a country rock star.
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I second that opinion. A little too drawn out for my taste also.
 
I always cringe inwardly when I see a movie or TV series showing the characters in a Civil War timeline using M1873 Colt revolvers and Winchester 1892 rifles...... Bad form!
There is a movie very loosely based on the story of Tom Dooley and starring young Michael Landon as Dooley, set at the very end of the Civil War. The handguns are recognizable as early 20th century double action S&W revolvers modified to kinda/sorta resemble the Remington 1858 cap&ball revolvers, and yeah, more M1892 Winchesters! Sheesh...... :scrutiny:

On the other hand, "Django Unchained" did pretty well. I saw no huge gun glitches.
 
I just hope the History Channels post Texas revolution Texas Ranger movie on Memorial Day gets things right.
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You and me both, Brother :)

I don't know how many times I've seen a commercial for a new western on tv only to watch it and be disappointed. Oh well, there's always 'Gunsmoke' reruns to switch over too.
 
From what I understand, the mini-series was filmed on location in Durango, Mexico. It starts with the fall of the Alamo, continues with the defeat of Santa Ana at San Jacinto. and hopefully will continue into the mid 1840s so we can see some action with Patersons. Quien Sabe? They are showing 5 2-hr episodes as opposed to the 4 originally planned. Lets keep our fingers crossed.
 
Now that's a shoot-em-up if I ever saw one. I know Costner seems to have shot 3 cylinders full of rounds during the excitement without reloading, but it is still a great, violent, period-authentic movie, IMO.
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I've seen that part refered to a number of times, but its not mentioned that Costner had, and checked loads in two pistols before the fight. I believe hes shown loading them both later also, maybe after he shoots down the guy holding the docs sister hostage.

I also think that was one of the better western film gunfights.
 
I also enjoy Open Range for its firearms authenticity, Lonesome Dove was also good, as was Dance with Wolves if I recall. I remember watching an episode of the Big Valley (Barbara Stanwyck, Lee Majors, & Linda Evans.....hubba hubba!!;)) on TV some 40 years ago, & some of the characters were carrying Marlin 336C rifles, white line spacers & all!!
 
I always got a kick out of the 1892 Winchesters with their fore stocks removed to make them into "Henry" rifles! ;)

There was a series of movies made by a German company, with the main character "Old Shatterhand", played by Lex Barker, and later "Old Surehand" played by Stewart Granger. Had a French actor (Pierre Brice) playing an Apache Chief friend of the hero, "Winnetou".
They often used rifles of a design that looked like much more modern rifles cobbled to resemble the old percussion single shots, but often the characters are shooting quickly without reloading.
 
bonza said:
I also enjoy Open Range for its firearms authenticity, Lonesome Dove was also good, as was Dance with Wolves if I recall. I remember watching an episode of the Big Valley (Barbara Stanwyck, Lee Majors, & Linda Evans.....hubba hubba!!;)) on TV some 40 years ago, & some of the characters were carrying Marlin 336C rifles, white line spacers & all!!
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I recall that ... it seemed very odd to me at the time. The receiver style IIRC was not accurate for Marlin rifles of that era.

I recall watching "Have Gun Will Travel" in which Paladin had a Marlin rifle with a horse head (Knight symbol) on the stock, but atleast it was a historically correct model ....more so atleast than the Marlin 336C rifles!
 
All those guns left over after the Civil War were not thrown into the scrap pile. Many of them would be fairly new and there were probably a bunch of new unissued ones to be had.

In the way of handguns the Colt SAA was way overpriced. A person could buy a 1860 Army call & ball revolver or better yet had a free one from picking up on the battlefield or issued to him he could send it back to Colt for modification for cartridges for $2.50. I would then have either the factory or local gunsmith cut the barrel back to 5" which might run $1.00. Compare that to $20.00 for the Colt SAA.

As for a rifle a Trapdoor would be more practical as the 45-70 will take down buffalo and other big game and certainly will take down a man and his horse.

With a reasonable amount of care there is no reason why a Henry or the Improved Henry and a cap & ball revolver would not last until after the turn of the century. In fact unless I had a high risk job I could be perfectly happy with a Colt's Navy and a Improved Henry.

But actually I would be well and probably best served by a shotgun.
 
I suspect cap'n'ball revolvers were carried for a long time as backup guns by Westerners who relied on a cartridge rifle, shotgun or revolver as their primary weapon.
 
Should of asked for a 73 in 44-40 and had a pistol or two for same ammo. The henry flat was not near as reliable as the centerfire ctgs, , but it was just a MOVIE !
 
Reminds me of a WWII movie with John Wayne where a Vietnam-era M151 Jeep pulls into a scene. Can't remember the movie name, but they didn't have M151 Mutts in WWII!
 
At Mom's the other day, I caught the last half of a recent western movie, "Aces & Eights", starring Bruce Boxleitner and Casper Van Dien - a pretty good flick! Cowboys fighting the encroaching railroad.
In the final big draw down at the end, both sides are shooting, and they run out and RELOAD! Saw a lot of the characters having to dump the empties from their Peacemakers and thumb in new ones. Most realistic shoot 'em up I have seen since Quigley Down Under. Rotten Tomatoes site didn't like it, but I did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aces_'N'_Eights

One of the worst groaners for 'realism' I ever saw was the movie "The Philadelphia Experiment". I watched it with several Navy buddies when we were in the Charleston, SC navy shipyard in the early 80's. The ships in the movie, a carrier and a destroyer, were actually the display/museum ships in Charleston Harbor! We could see them everyday! Here they were, in a supposed WWII setting, and we could see the JET fighters on deck, and the modern radar and EW gear on them! AND, the USS Savannah, the world's first and only Nuclear Freighter, was in the background on display! And of course, the Army guys were shown driving Ford M151 MUTTS and modern M35 trucks...... SHEESH! Whoever their tech consultant was should have been hung...... The rest of the audience were wondering why these young squids were almost rolling in the aisles laughing. :D
 
Why would a Maxim in 1911 be not historically correct?

They had been in service somewhere in the world for 20 years by then. Africa with the British for instance.

The Spanish had some in Cuba during the Spanish American War.

Colt made a licensed copy in 1904. A few were in US service in 1914 when we got our wake up call.....and pretty much rolled over and went back to sleep. Also keep in mind that in those days you could have walked into Colt's door with cash in hand an walked out with one with no government interference.

The Germans were making them in 1908.

The Russians started cranking them out in 1910.

The US military was machinegun ignorant and backwards until WWI forced us to wake up JMB to clean up his potato digger and have Marlin make it as a traditional piston gun for aircraft use and use on Ford built Renault design tanks. Then demand something better and get the 1917 then the 1919 and finally the 1921. The 1921 stayed with us as the M2HB from 1921 until today. Training and use with 1919s continued until at least 1973 in US guard units.

Maxim in Mexico in 1914? No problem.

-kBob
 
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