1895 Chilean Mauser question

[sobrbiker883]

My dad just gave me a Loewe 1895 Chilean Mauser (standard rifle).
I’ve researched the piss out it/them and have a question.

I'm going to handload for it, I know the original load was a 173gr round nose. I also know that if the rear sight ladder has the dual spring tabs, a rifle has been armory re-done for the later 154gr spire point.

my question is-why can’t I find any info anywhere on just what this 154 spire point was (soft point/fmj, flat base, bullet length, velocity, etc…)???

I’d like to find a modern bullet best shaped to replicate the later military load that was used in the 7x57. Just seems odd that so many 1895’s are out there with the later sight and no one talks about the later load.

 

[tactikel]

My only suggestion it to find a bullet that fits your purposes, and adjust your sights to zero. This may not be easy, but it will be rewarding.

 

[Slamfire]

Understand that the maximum pressures of those 1895 loads was 3,000 atmospheres or 44087 psia. And even then, if you read German Military Rifles 88 and 91 Firearms V.2 by Deeter Storz, (the GEW88 was built at the same time as the early small ring Mausers) GEW's were blowing up at a high enough rate to cause a National scandal. Mr Storz has a significant section on the "Judenflinten" (Jewish Gun) scandal and metallurgical failures of the 1888 Commission rifles.The 1888 was an early smokeless round, the metals of the era, plain carbon steels with a lot of slag and impurities, and the occasional Ludwig and Loewe made 1888 blew up. So did the occasional 1888's made by other manufacturers. But the fact that Ludwig and Loewe were Jewish owned, allowed German Anti Semitics to claim:

The next scandal was caused by a pamphlet of (Hermann) Ahlwardt, “ Judenflinten,” (jewish guns) in which he accused the armament firm of Ludwig Lowe of being bribed by the Alliance Israelite of Paris to deliver inferior guns to the Prussian Army , so that the latter might be defeated in the next war of revenge. The falsity of the charge was proved by a Government official, but it was not until after thousands of copies of the pamphlet had been sold in the streets that it was confiscated, and Ahlwardt, after prosecution, was sentenced to five months imprisonment

Anti-Semitism in Germany. Israel Cohen, 1918
https://archive.org/stream/antisemitisminge00cohe/antisemitisminge00cohe_djvu.txt

Those small ring Mausers were made using the same technology and materials as the GEW 1888's. And I do know a fellow shooter who was invited to shoot a sporterized 1895 Mauser. I now forget the cartridge he said it was in, might have been 7mm. Bud looked at the load data, it looked OK, fired one round at the target, and when he attempted to work the bolt, the receiver ring was missing! The metallurgy of the period is always to be suspect.

So what I am going to say, is don't hot rod that Mauser. There is a reason SAAMI specs for the 8mm Mauser were 35,000 psia . Shovel in a 50,000 psia load, and you may experience receiver seat and lug set back.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Not looking to hotrod, I’d just like to find the round they switch to, and try to work up to/around that-it had to work ok with the number of rifles fit with the later sights.

I’ll be getting a copy of Nielsen’s book on the Chilean guns sometime after the holidays, hopefully it may shed some light on their switch to spitzers in the 7x57.

I’ve seen accounts of failures, but they never seem to be Chilean or Boer guns.

 

[sobrbiker883]

In case anyone else is interested, Lyman 44 used a 29” Mauser 95 for their load data

 

[Bcwitt]

Once upon a time, i had found several boxes of 7x57 fmj ammo from one of the south american / spanish contries, i dont know which. Pulled bullets were 13? Gr.(135 or so to 140) very crude crimp onto no cannulure groove. Bullets were sharp to the touch. Was terrible ammo, but the price was right.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I have an 1891 Argentine Mauser. It shoots a 7.65x53 round. I use Speer 150 grain .311 bullets in it. I load with cast data. I feel safer that way shooting the ole gal.

 

[Archie]

... have a question.

... the original load was a 173gr round nose. ... rear sight ladder ... re-done for the later 154gr spire point.

my question is-why can’t I find any info anywhere on just what this 154 spire point was (soft point/fmj, flat base, bullet length, velocity, etc…)???

I’d like to find a modern bullet best shaped to replicate the later military load that was used in the 7x57. Just seems odd that so many 1895’s are out there with the later sight and no one talks about the later load.

I collect rifles of WW1 and load for them.
Most of the military rifle rounds of the era (when the round was developed) were Fully Jacked Round Nose style. The upgrades later were (by Mauser and the Europeans in general) used a 'spitzer' (pointed with the tapered portion shaped as convex arcs instead of straight lines). Likely a flat base.
In 7mm probably the closest weight will be 150 grains (to find easily), and I doubt if any are FMJ. That part should not matter.
PPU or another European maker may make a 10 gram (that is 154 grains in pounds and ounces) bullet, but in the current panic, I wouldn't hold my breath.

If you are trying for a 'duplicate' round for comparison, a 150 grain soft point is probably as good as it gets. The velocity and drop will be close enough for most of us guys.

 

[tark]

Here are the military loads used by Brazil & Colombia: 139 gr. @ 2950 FPS. (That seems kinda HOT ! )

Uruguay 142gr. @2740 FPS Spain and others; 173gr. @ 2296 FPS.

These figures are in "Cartridges of the World." Still finding that 2950 number kind hard to believe. I suspect it was for the 98 Mausers and not the earlier guns.

 

[gwpercle]

I hunted deer in South Louisiana with the Hornady 154 gr. RN with my model 95 , it was the model with a turned down bolt and may have been a "Short Rifle " I know it didn't have a 29" barrel ...
It was more like 24" barrel . But it shot the 154 gr Hornady's very well , I used the RN because the distances were short ...50 yards is a long shot in the Louisiana swamps ... I was told that the RN would hit harder and give better expansion at short range on deer ... never had to take but one shot !

I see that the 154 gr. RN has been discontinued but Hornady still makes a 154 gr. Spire Point #2830 that should be just the ticket !

Gary

 

[sobrbiker883]

Thanks guys good info from all. I’ve got notifications set at a couple retailers for the PPU 10g SP…
Gary-the 2830 is what I was looking to order. Probably gonna work up with IMR4350 and the Lyman 44 data since the 1895 is the rifle they used.

 

[Slamfire]

Here are the military loads used by Brazil & Colombia: 139 gr. @ 2950 FPS. (That seems kinda HOT ! )

Uruguay 142gr. @2740 FPS Spain and others; 173gr. @ 2296 FPS.

These figures are in "Cartridges of the World." Still finding that 2950 number kind hard to believe. I suspect it was for the 98 Mausers and not the earlier guns.

Hard to know the accuracy of the Brazilian and Colombian number. I did buy a Colombian M98 in 30-06, made in the 1950's. I don't know what exactly they had in active inventory at the time, but there were M98's.


But something also to remember, is the callousness of those in charge to the safety of their men. As an example the US Army finally went out and ran tests on the low number M1903's in 1927. This was ten years after production had ended, and who knows the body pile it took to get a safety investigation. Hatcher reports one third of the low number receivers were structurally deficient, even after re heat treatments. There is no non destructive test to sort good from bad, and instead of scrapping all 1 million low number M1903's, Officialdumb decided to keep the rifles in inventory till they wore out (or blew up in the face of a Soldier, Sailor or Marine!). That decision is reported without comment by Hatcher, and over the decades since, many have considered it as Solomonic. Decision makers consider subordinates disposable in the interests of the organization, and so, maybe ammunition that hot was issued for M1895s, and potential injuries to the users were considered an inevitable and an acceptable risk.

It is up to the owner of one of those antiques to decide for himself just how much risk they are willing to gamble with.

 

[gwpercle]

Thanks guys good info from all. I’ve got notifications set at a couple retailers for the PPU 10g SP…
Gary-the 2830 is what I was looking to order. Probably gonna work up with IMR4350 and the Lyman 44 data since the 1895 is the rifle they used.

That sounds like a Great Plan ... Good Luck !

Post range report when done,
Gary