1897 Winchester Shotgun

[cpt-t]

I have what I belive to be a early 1897 Winchester Pump D model.
The serial is D 3213##. Could anyone tell me the year my Gun was made. It has a 30in Full Choke Barrel, and looks like a new Gun, if that makes a difference. The Gun has a truley unbeliveable story that goes with it. From the Old Man I bought it from. And He said He bought the Gun New. In the early 1920`s.
Thanks in advance for any help on this.
ken

 

[rule303]

Date of manufacture should be 1907. Condition makes a huge difference- like new original is worth a heck of a lot more than like new refinished. That vintage will also have a short chamber unless it has been lengthened for 2.75" shells. Don't shoot it with modern ammo unless you're sure.

 

[PapaG]

And make sure the "new" look is really original and not a refinish, refurbish, or restoration.

 

[cpt-t]

rule303 & PapaG: Thanks to both of you for your help. I have had the gun looked at by several aprasiers and they are really split down the middle. About half of them say, my gun looks to good to be that old and not have been refinished. The other half says my gun is completely original and has not been touched. So I am at a loss on what to do next. Thanks again:
ken

 

[Virginian]

One used to be able to send their gun back to Winchester for a refinish, and those were darned hard to distinguish from an original not refinished. If you are buying it to shoot it won't matter, but if you are buying it to collect better figure you are going to have a hard time convincing someone else down the road it has not been refinished.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

My grandpa had one just like it, except for the really good condition part. His was a bit worn...

 

[cpt-t]

McCoy: My grandpaw had 1897 in 16 gauge also, and I grew up shooting His Old Gun. Along with my Dads Model 12 in a 16 gauge and my Brothers 37 Ithica in a 16 gauge. 16 Gauge`s were really big in my family. And my 1897 is a 12 Gauge. I have always had a thing for Pump Shotguns. But the WIN 1897 always seem to fit me better than just about any other Pump Shotgun I ever used. I have used my long barreled, full choke 1897 to late season Pheasant hunt with, for the last 10 or 12 years. My Old Gun really shines in the big fields when the birds are spooky and flushing wild. To be real honest I always make belive I am shooting my GrandPaws Old 16 Gauge. My GrandPaw, My Dad, and My Brother are all three gone now, along with all my Uncles and their Old Friends . But I still miss them. And I think of them often when walking the big fields chaseing Pheasant`s. But I am sure they are all watching, and rawhideing me just like they always did when I was young, when I missed a bird. Sorry if I got long winded. But thoes days were some of the best days of my whole life.
ken

 

[mnrivrat]

If the gun dates to 1907 and the story is it was bought new in the 1920's there is a clue there somewhere .

Any part of the story you wish to share ?

 

[Virginian]

Yes I thought of that too, mnrivrat. Even back then Winchester 97s didn't sit around for over 10 years.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

cpt-t,
That wasn't "long winded', just good memories back to light. Enjoy that new/old pump gun.

 

[Red Cent]

The refinish won't take away much, if any, from an original. 'Course, the old adage "the value of an object is what a seller is willing to sell it for and what a willing buyer will pay".

I have two 1897 solid frames on hand. Went through a bunch of them when I was active in SASS.

In my world, the popularity of the 1897 has waned due to the importing of replicas from China. The recent imports are competition ready (slick as snot applies) and sell for $600.00. Short barrels though but have screw in chokes.

 

[cpt-t]

mnrivrat: The Story on my Old Win 1897 takes some telling. I got started in Cowboy Action Shooting in 1998 or 1999. And finally decided on a pair of SS Ruger Vaquero`s and a SS Rossie Lever Gun all in 45LC. But I knew from the get go that my Shotgun, was going to have to be a Win 1897 Pump Gun. So I told every body I knew, to be on the look out for a really nice one for me. And the long search began. And finally after a year or so, I got a call from my Brother in Law in Missouri saying that He had found one that looked brand new for a good price. So I stopped by the bank, and then made the 4 hr drive to Carthage Mo that night. The next morning I went to see and Old Man that lived south of Joplin Mo that had a WIN 1897 Shotgun for sale. When I finally found His place, there stood and Old Cowboy standing on His porch watching me drive up. I introduced my self and asked if He had a Old Win Shotgun for sale. And He said He was and that for me to sit down and he would go get it. He brought the gun out and handed it to me. I was holding the best looking 1897 I had ever seen, and the more I looked it over. The more I was convinced the gun was brand new. And I told Him that, He told me that He bought it New and had never fired it. He said He found it at an old Hardware Store down in Supalpa Oklahoma when He lived there, in the early 1920`s. He said the Owner of the Hardware store had asked Him the help clean out and rearrange the Stores Storage Areas. While doing this they found this Shotgun still in the box that had been misplaced and then covered up with other goods. And had been forgotten about for many years. Well He wound up buying the the gun. He said he always wanted a good Shotgun to hunt Quails with rather than use His old single barrel shotgun. Well We talked for a while and He told me of His life as a Cowboy in OK and MO. He was the real deal. Well we finally setteled on a more than fair for me price. And I tried to hand Him my money. And He just stood there for a moment, and then he said He had to tell me about the gun befor he would take my money. And He said I might not want it after I heard what He was about to tell me.
ken

 

[cpt-t]

mnrivrat: ((( PART TWO )))
Well this is the Story the Old Cowboy told me. And it just made me have to have the Old Gun even more. He said he took the Gun home, and could not wait for the up coming Quail season to start in a few days. For He was going to be using a really nice New Pump Shotgun that He could really be proud of that year, rather than His Old Single Barrel Shotgun. Men down in OKLA in thoes days seemed to take a lot of pride. In the Horses they rode and the Shotguns they hunted with. Prideful I guess, but I never saw this as a bad trait in a Man. And I belive they still are a lot that way down in that part of the country. Well the day befor Quail Season started. His Neighboor that just live down the rode and that He had knew most of His life, came driving up pretty fast and jumped out of his truck, and ran up to the house all excited and said He need to borrow His New Shotgun. He said He was having really serious problem with some ((( SKUNK`S ))). And the Old Cowboy said he figured his friend might have more than one Rabid Skunk to deal with. So even tho He wanted to be the first one to shoot His New Shotgun. He just started loading up His New Shotgun, but his friend said he would only need 3 shell`s. That didn`t seem right but His friend took his shotgun and left. Later that evening, the Old Cowboy found out the ((( SKUNKS ))) that His friend was having trouble with. Were His Wife and another Man and He had caught them in his Bed tograther. And He shot them both right there in the bed, Shot Man once and His Wife twice. Killed them both right there in the bedroom, I guess it was one hell of a mess. And the Sheriff took the Old Cowboy`s Shotgun as evidence and He did not get to use His New Shotgun Quail Hunting that year. The trial was held and the man was found not guilty, the jury found the man was justfied to do what he did. Different Times and a different place than we have to day.
ken

 

[Coogs.]

If true or not, great story!! I believe it. A story like that would not be too hard to research, if it was my gun, I would. Would give some great providence to neat ole piece. Coogs.

 

[cpt-t]

mnrivrat: PART 3

A year or so went by and the Sheriff brought the the Shotgun back out to the Old Cowboy`s place and gave it back to Him. But the Old Cowboy just put the Shotgun in a closet and never ever used it. Said He felt really bad about loaning the Shotgun to His friend. For the Wife and the other Man that was killed were good friends of his also, and had been since they were very young. The Man that did the killing was never right after that, for the Corner found that His Wife was carrying His Child. The Old Cowboy told me that as far as he knew that the Shotgun had only been fired three times. But that He had never ever wanted to fire it, and never did. He said if I still wanted the Gun I could just have it. I told him I couldn`t do that, and He finally took my money. He wished me well and said he hoped I enjoyed the Old Gun, and shook my hand. I started to leave and He said He had something else that should go with the gun And He brought out 3 Old Boxes of Paper 12 gauge shells. Two were full unopened boxes and one had 3 shells missing out of it.
Never ever seen the Old Cowboy after that, but the Story that He told me that day and the Story I have told You. I just belive deep in my heart to be true. I would bet money on it. I hope I have not bored any one. But ever once in a while, I just really feel the need to tell some one this Story. I hope you found it was worth reading, for I don`t tell this very often, and I have never ever
written it down befor. This Old Gun is very special to Me.
ken

 

[Phdui76]

Great story! I bet you could go to the local library and read old newspapers when the shooting happened and have a nice piece of evidence to keep with your shotgun.

 

[cpt-t]

Phdui76: I have thought about doing just as You suggested. And I have made a 1/2 hearted, attempted to check out the story the Old Cowboy told me. I even have a Cousin that lives in Kellyville Ok, a little town about 6 to 8 miles from Supalpa. And She has asked a couple of LE Officers friends of Hers , that work in the Supalpa area if they could check out the story for me. But both times they said, that they could not find any information on it. To be real honest I have just quit trying, to dubble check what the Old Cowboy told me, I feel guilty of violating a trust, that the Old Man and I built that day. And for the life of me, I just can`t belive the Old man lied to me. I spent several hours setting on His front porch listening to him tell me about His life. And then He offered to just give me his Shotgun, and I really belive he meant it, and would have. I guess I just want the Story to be true. And darn it Old Cowboys are not suspossed to lie, tell wild Story`s mabey but not just out and out lie. Story Telling by the Old People, was a very speical part of my life growing up. Again I hope I have not bored any one that has read. It was just me rambling`s of things that were speical to me. That I experienced that day.
ken

 

[rcmodel]

Some old stories are best left with old memories, just as you have done.

I have traced down a couple of dead guys guns I bought at estate sales.

The truth of what might have been is always less satisfying then the story as told by the sellers.

Best to let sleeping dogs lie sometimes and roll with the memory's.

rc

 

[eastbank]

the story behind my winchester model 97 is pretty plain, it was bought in the early 50,s for a young man at a good price by his dad, when they went to get a new shotgun the store owner gave the dad a good price(the young man wanted a model 12) on the 97 and thats what dad bought. well the young man used it for several years and never warmed up to it(it took the hide off his hand more than once)and later bought a model 12 so it sat in his gun room unfired over the next 40 years and his wife sold it to me when he went to a rest home(with his permission). it is in very good condition and i hunt with it from time to time. eastbank.

 

[cpt-t]

rc & eastbank: I have always been atracted to the Old Story Tellers. Like a Moth to the Flame. Where I grew up and befor TV, The Old People told alot of stories. When they would get to gather. And a good story teller was well respected and welcomed at most gathering. I have spent many, just truely wonderfull hours listening to my Grandpaw and His old friends. Tell about their lives and experiences. When I would see a group of Old Men setting on park Benches. I was drawn to them, to hear their stories. I could just lose all track of time. Sitting with them and listening. For they were telling You their life`s story. And sometimes tears would stream down their faces, when they were telling about the special times in their lives, when they were young. I am truly sorry, that that time has pasted. And I wish I had spent alot more time with them. But I really try to remember and tell to other people, some of the their stories. That they allow me hear.
ken