1905 S&w?

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popeye

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Today I bought a pre 17 ..5 screw S&W .22 4in., 70% shape finish wise. Mechanicals are excellent. I also got a 1905?, .38 S&W 6 in. ser # 7090XX stamped P on the butt. Has lanyard ring, and Crown over BNP stamped on frame, cyl and barrel. Also stamped .38.767 and looks like 793 1/2 TONS on left side of barrel. Gun is about 65-70%, any idea of background?
 
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".38 S&W 6 in. ser # 7090XX"

This sounds like a .38 Military and Police Model 1904, 4th Change. The serial number places it as a 1940-era revolver. The markings are the same as shown in a picture in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson by Supica and Nahas, page 102, upper right corner. Looks like it was one either manufactured for or shipped to Great Britain during WWII.

I think you have found a very nice example of a WWII revolver. Congrtulations. I am sure that a few others here can fill you in on more of the details than I can.
 
Frosty...

Don't you mean 1905, 4th change ?


Popeye..Pre Model 11, 38-200 Brit.

Suggest you thoroughly examine it to determine if it is still right for 38 S&W.
There have been assorted methods of makin em take .38 Special.
Some of which are downright scary and others just sloppy.

Would be nice if it is still truly a .38 S&W.

Nice catch on both.
That K-22 Masterpiece shooter would feel right at home here.

Sam
 
Popeye:

Concerning the .38 Military & Police revolver:

Remove the grips and look on the sides of the frame for any alphabetic markings, especially a two-letter marking starting with the letter “B.†Also check and see if the serial number, or part of it, is stamped on one or the other grip panels on the inside.

Also are the grips plain walnut or checkered? If checkered do they have the silver trademark escutions at the top or do they not?

Does the remaining blue appear to be a bright polished blue, or blue over wire brush? Or for that matter is it Parkerized? You may have to look in protected areas too tell.

Yup … I do have a reason for asking.
 
Old Fuff: B 0 and R P stamped on frame at area around grip locating pin. Grips are checkered walnut w/S&W logo escutchions. Matching ser. # stamped on one grip. Finish is bright blue and appears original. 33 is hand painted on grip bottom.
 
Popeye:

Thanks. Give me a little time any you'll have the history you're looking for. I now have everything I need. Expect good news.

Sam:

Go away!!!!! I saw him first! Anyway, who would want an old junker chambered for an obsolete cartridge and a barrel that's too long to carry in an ankle holster? (Well I might offer $25.00 and a nickel-plated, top-break .32) ....
 
Pins n needles. l never get lucky. I'm usually like the guy in Lil' Abner with the rain cloud over his head all the time. Thanks for everyones trouble in info an research.

"nickel-plated, top-break .32"..... ya know....I used to collect S&W saftey models. All sold to pay for dee vorce 20 years ago. Still want a "Bicycle Gun" though.
 
Popeye:

Your picture is fine. Things are looking better and better. I will get you some neat information as soon as I can write it up. I'd say you hit a winner this time.

Regarding S&W New Departure revolvers. I like them too. No good reason, but who needs a reason?

You look out for that Ol' C.R. Sam. The trouble with him is that he knows as much as I do ....... Ah hate smart people. He won't let me get away with nothin.
 
Like any good bird dawg....
I will honor Fuff's point.

Suggest it be done carefully, cause Mike , and others , will pick it well lookin for "gotchas". :)

Sam
 
The years known as the Great Depression spanned the 1930’s, and were not kind to many, including the firearms industry. Smith & Wesson in particular suffered mightlly. That company’s products consisted of handguns at a time when the frontier in the West had mostly ended, few military contracts were being placed, and urban states and cities were passing legislation designed to discourage, if not outright prohibit the purchase, possession and carrying of pistols or revolvers.

As orders fell S&W was faced with another problem. It had been their practice to fabricate parts and assemble revolvers using gages rather then blueprints. The result was form of unique parts interchangeability but this method required a workforce with unusually high skills and experience. If a substantial number of these people were terminated it might be difficult if not impossible to replace them. Consequently they decided to continue production of both parts and guns at levels that were not justified by incoming orders.

By the late 1930’s things were so desperate they accepted a contract from the British War Office to design, tool and manufacturer a light 9mm carbine. This was a type of arm that Smith & Wesson had never built and an area in which they had no experience. Since they had no funds for this purpose they requested and obtained an advance payment of one million dollars to get the project going. Tooling began in October 1939 and production started in 1940. It soon became apparent that the carbine would not function satisfactorily with the ammunition specified by the British and the project was terminated. At this point the customer ask for their advance back.

Smith & Wesson had neither the money nor any way to raise such a sum. If the British pressed their claim the company would be forced bankruptcy.

Fortunately Carl Hellstrom, S&W's new Plant Superintendent and future president was able to negotiate a deal to pay off the debt with revolvers (of which they had many) rather then money (of which they had none).

By then the hard-pressed English, who expected Hitler to invade at any moment, were more then willing to accept any kind of guns they could get. But it was clear that to be useful any large quantity of revolvers would need to be able to use “their†service cartridge - which was nothing more that an adaptation of the common .38 S&W, which in one way or another had been around since 1876. However the only Hand Ejector Smith & Wesson made for this round was a little 5-shot Regulation Police model or the even smaller 38/32 Terrier - it was a 5-shot snubby. A military sidearm needed to hold six shots and be much more rugged.

Smith & Wesson quickly proposed something they’d never made - or at least cataloged - before. There was no reason not to make their popular 1905 Hand Ejector/Military & Police - 4th Change chambered to use the .38 S&W cartridge. All the necessary tooling was available and production could start at once by pulling revolvers out of the warehouse and rebuilding them.

Serials numbers are reputed to have begun in the regular Military & Police series at 700,000. However examples are known in the high 685,000 range with delivery dates in the late spring of 1940. Orders were processed through the British Purchasing Commission, at a time when the United States was supposed to be officially neutral. This “arrangement†continued until the Lend-Lease program was established in March 1941. Thereafter the guns would bear U.S. Property markings and be inspected by military inspectors even though they were intended to go to a foreign country.

During the earliest months the “Smith & Wesson No. 2 - 38-200 revolver†was made to commercial standards. They featured a bright-blue finish, checkered Caucasian walnut grips - usually (but not always) with a nickel-plated trademark medallion at the top, and 4, 5 or 6 inch barrels. Unlike their commercial equivalent they came with a lanyard swivel as standard equipment. These revolvers, with the possible exception of barrels and cylinders, were assembled from parts-on-hand. The excessive production during the 1930’s was about to pay off. Various (and numerous) proof and property marks were stamped on the guns after they arrived at their destination, not at the S&W plant.

Production officially started on March 11, 1940. By October 1940 the entire plant was dedicated to making nothing but .38-200 revolvers. When the U.S. Navy tried to slip in an order for 3000 regular .38 Special Military & Police revolvers it was respectfully declined. Production of regular commercial revolvers did not resume until February 27, 1941. By that time the company was in a position to meet both British and domestic requirements.

The first production was shipped to the United Kingdom, Canada, and South Africa.

Regarding those with 6-inch barrels:

A shipment consisting of 20,000 guns was delivered to the British Purchasing Commission on June 20, 1940. An additional 16,600 went to Canada on June 28, 1940. It is unclear if all of these revolvers were delivered on the stated date, or if the date represents the beginning of shipments against the total order.

It appears that the guns that went to Canada were sometimes, if not always, marked with a two-letter stamp starting with the letter “B†on the side of the frame near the stock pin located on the lower front corner of the frame.

Exact details concerning the revolver-in-question can be obtained by requesting a factory letter from S&W’s company historian, Roy Jinks. The cost for this service is a reasonable $30.00. Details will be found on Smith & Wesson’s web site at www.smith-wesson.com

By early 1941 the design of the S&W No. 2 revolver had been standardized to a 5-inch barrel and a plainer finish (brush-blue and then Parkerizing) with plain, uncheckered stocks. By the end of the war 590,305 guns had purchased through U.S. Government contracts alone. This figure does not include the guns purchased directly by the British.

Bottom line: I think your revolver is one of the relatively few that were made with a 6-inch barrel, and it was most likely shipped to Canada during the spring of 1940.

Popeye .... You are a winner!
 
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Yeah, you did good. I can never do that. Sigh........


Good for you, enjoy your gun.

Norm:banghead:
 
Never give up Norm. They (fill in the blank) are out there - and most people don't recognize them for what they are. Pick a field you particularly like (military weapons, World War Two, vintage pistols or revolvers, lever action rifles - you name it). Then haunt the web pages and forums and read the books. You can learn, and the day will come when you spot something. I could write a book about the things I've found, and maybe someday I will.
 
Production officially started on March 11, 1940. By October 1940 the entire plant was dedicated to making nothing but .28-200 revolvers. :D When the U.S. Navy tried to slip in an order for 3000 regular .38 Special Military & Police revolvers


Is this a 38-200 necked down to 28, that bullet must be lengthy, what twist rate is needed to stablise it, and what velocity did it get from a 6" barrel??????:D


Great report on the S&W revolvers for 9mm sub guns history.
 
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Popeye:

I failed to mention that the hand-painted number on the butt is a rack number. The guns were racked in an arms room, muzzle up. Your gun went into the No. 33 slot.

You should get a factory letter to confirm what I've told you. There is always a possibility that the gun went somewhere else, but with the "BO" marking by the stock pin I don't think so.

A similar revolver (serial number unknown) with the "BO" marking and 6-inch barrel was shipped to the British Purchasing Commission on August 22, 1940 and then on to Canada. The many stamps on the gun are either property or proof marks. All of the Brits. were stamp-happy.

Clean it up and take good care of it. History is never replaceable. You have one of the guns that saved Smith & Wesson. Without them the company would have been bankrupt by the end of 1940. Think of all the guns we enjoy today that would have never happened.
 
Perfessr:

In 1927 the British abandon their .455 caliber Webley revolvers and adopted a similar but smaller version made at their Enfield Arsenal. During World War Two this was their standard sidearm, augmented by additional supplies of Smith & Wesson and Webley revolvers. Obviously they wanted all of them to use a common cartridge. The .38 Special didn’t come into consideration because it was too long to fit into a Enfield/Webley cylinder.

The cartridge of choice was the .38 S&W, a short, straight, rimed case which in British garb started out with a 200-grain lead bullet going around 640 FPS. This was soon changed to a 178-grain jacketed bullet when plain lead was outlawed for military use. The velocity didn’t improve much. Rifling twist in the S&W was 18.75 to 1, which wasn’t intended to stabilize the bullet. They wanted it to tumble on impact and make a larger wound - maybe good in theory but it didn’t seem to happen in practice. The cartridge was not known as a major man-stopper.

Perhaps the most interesting one used a 125-grain FMJ bullet going an average of 625 FPS from a 4-inch barrel. It was special ordered by the Army at the request of the O.S.S. What the “spooks†had in mind I have no idea, but next to the British and their Commonwealth the O.S.S. bought more 38-200 S&W revolvers then anyone else. They must have known something I don’t.
 
Sam & Norm ....

I'm a little slow, but with all of this adult supervision I finely caught the typo. Thanks.
 
Old Fuff, C.R. Sam, et al;

Can't tell you all how much I admire your knowledge, helpfulness, and ability to respond so accurately, quickly, and thoroughly.

That does it. I ain't NEVER leavin'! :D

Dang, now I'm gonna have to pick up some more Smiths.

BTW - congratulations, Popeye!

R-Tex12
 
I'm a little slow, but with all of this adult supervision I finely caught the typo. Thanks....Fuff the elder
That got the keyboad sprayed.
If that the only typo you make, you qualified to wear a halo.

That was a lot of typing, and very well done.
Without an editor to pre nit pick it yet.

:D

Sam....none of us are safe if we are around.
 
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