Mystery S&W

[SCmarksman]

To all S&W buffs:

I’m just back from the gun show. After spending 6 hours looking at every available J and K-frame, I found and ended up purchasing this one. I got it to teach newbies how revolvers work, and to shoot it in our yearly IDPA BUG-matches, but I’m also fascinated by its history.

The revolver appears (to my untrained eye) to be a .38 caliber snub-nosed S&W K-frame, but there are no S&W markings, and instead of S&W grips it wears a set of (imitation stag?) wooden ones marked 130519 on the inside panel. The serial number marked on the butt and cylinder is V31***. It is stamped “15 80 835” inside the yoke. The cylinder is stamped with a crowned BNP behind each cylinder flute and ENGLAND at the rear edge of the cylinder. The underside of the barrel is marked with a crowned BNP and “ .38’’ .767’’ 31/2 tons ” The seller told me that the person he bought it from had brought the gun back from Germany. It locks up as tightly as any S&W I found today, but has a tiny amount of end-shake.

What have I just bought? What do the marks mean? Any ideas when the S&W markings were removed and why? If the "130519" mark is a date (May 13, 1919) would this indicate the removal of S&W marks happened in England because of the DDMMYY (instead of MMDDYY) format? What was the intended caliber?

Finally, it was worth $350 to me, but would it have been worth that to you?

Thanks,
SCmarksman

 

[briansp82593]

probably been chopped, maybe pre- model 10?

 

[Oro]

That is properly called a S&W 38/200 British Service Revolver, or informally a "British Victory" revolver. It was one of the lend-lease guns that went to Britain, probably made in 1942 with that S/N. The numbers inside the yoke are inconsequential - just internal assembly numbers used to mate parts during production. It was likely originally 4" barreled, though also possibly 5" or 6".

Since the caliber markings have been removed from the barrel, it's worth investigating carefully whether it's still 38/200 caliber or .38 special - they aren't interchangeable. The majority of the British guns were in the 38/200 (or .38 S&W) caliber. The chamber dimensions and barrel diameter are wider on a .38/200. The re-blue job seems ok, too bad about the pitting on the right sideplate, and you can see on the butt where they plugged the lanyard hole forward of the s/n. The lanyard was found only on the victory guns (with very few exceptions), and the s/n was offset rearward to accommodate that, as you can see. The grips appear to be fake stage-style, cut from later model victory gips (since the s/n's don't match). It is possible it was converted to .38 special before re-export, but it's worth verifying. That the cylinder is stamped "England" is unusual to my eye - see if the s/n is repeated under the star of the ejector and on the cylinder face (it should be). If not, perhaps it was fitted with a proper .38 special cylinder in England before re-export. To correctly convert the caliber, you'd need to change both the barrel and cylinder, and this was rarely done that I am aware of. The ejector rod is a "long" one found on 4" and longer barrels. The fact the ejector locking lug was clipped off and the ejector-rod not changed to a short-barrel model implies some corners were cut here. Here's a site that gives an overview of the "Victory" guns, US and British.

PS - oh, the markings on the barrel were removed as they would have looked awkward being cut-through. The sideplate markings may or may not have been removed. I can't tell from the photo if enough metal was removed to relieve them. It is possible they were never there - some have been seen without the stampings - these were rapidly produced for wartime demand and not all customary touches were always done - variations, errors and omissions abound.

http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/victory_model_smith_and_wesson.htm

 

[SCmarksman]

Kamerer:

The SN is also on the ejection star and cylinder. How does one check if it is a .38 S&W or .38 Special?

Thanks,
SCmarksman

 

[Will5A1]

I'd add that barrel, when it was shortened, lost its forward locking lug (or whatever its called); the end of the ejector rod is now not locked under the barrel when the cyclinder is closed. I don't know if that makes any practical difference regarding functioning or safety, as the first M&P (Model of 1899) didn't have a forward locking point, but that Victory did until the barrel was cut. I've seen others cut that way and I don't think its a good idea, but thats just my opinion.

If the barrel and cyclinder are original to the frame the same serial number will be stamped on the flat part of the barrel forward of the frame and the rear face of the cyclinder. The rear face of the yoke (look through the cyclinder with a flashlight) will also be stamped with the serial number as will the underside of the extractor.

FWIW serial number V57908 shipped from the factory in August, 1942, your revolver would probably have shipped a month or two prior. The BNP markings indicate proof at the Birmingham Proof House, the S&W logos and others markings were most likely polished off during a refinish in the 1950's or early 1960's. If the cyclinder accepts .38 S&W and the longer .38 Special (but slightly thinner) it probably started life as a .38/200 and was converted to .38 Special by boring out the cyclinder chambers to the longer round's length. Firing .38 Special in such a converted revolver may result in bulged or split cases, you may want to stick to the shorter .38 S&W. I would certainly not fire any high pressure, .38 Special +P through it.

 

[Powerplus]

SCmarksman,
It was good meeting you today. Interesting find you have there. I'm sure there are better ways of determining the chambering of your revolver, but if you have a .38 special cartridge try it for fit. If it is a .38 s&w, it won't fit. I have a 4" .38 special victory model. It is marked on the right side of the barrel as such. I agree that the grip panels look like they may be original srips that have been carved. My Victory has the S&W logo lightly stamped one the right side panel.

 

[win308]

Is it worth $350 ??? I've bought mint S&W 19s (.357) for $350.. and model 65s for $300....also mint. Seems a bit high to me for a 38...and a chop job.

 

[SaxonPig]

Most people advise against shooting these guns. They turn up all the time. The missing front lug makes ignition and cylinder timing problematic. The British proofs means a 98% chance it's in 38 S&W and not 38 Special but most likely the smith who butchered the barrel also reamed the chambers. Don't shoot 38 Specials. The cases will often split as the chamber is oversize.

The only real solution is a replacement barrel. They are fairly cheap ($10-$40 if you look around) but a gunsmith will want $100 plus for labor. Makes the gun too costly to fix unless you don't care about the expense.

I would find the seller and demand a refund.

PS: Oh dear God, I just noticed you paid $350 for this!!!!!!!! For that much I would want a Model 10 in perfect condition... with a rare barrel length. I'm sorry but you got ripped off as badly as I have seen in a long time.

 

[Jim Watson]

What have I just bought?

An all too common Internet Question.

You were robbed by a gang including an avaricous vendor, your own ignorance and a sense of pressure to buy something at the gun show.

As described, that gun is an example of WW II British surplus, reamed out for a Yank cartridge, sawn off to a "snubnose thirty-eight" just like Joe Friday's, and polished up real good for sale to gullible Colonials. $29.50 at the time.


"If you can't be a good example, you will be a horrible warning."

 

[SCmarksman]

Now that I know what I'm looking at... the cylinder was intended for .38S&W. The end of the chambers were reamed for the longer .38 Special cases, as you can see in the attached picture.

The hole for the .38 S&W cartridge extends about 20 mm. The hole for the .38 Special cartridge extends about 29 mm. This corresponds to the case length of .38 S&W and .38 Special ammunition, respectively. As you can see, the hole for the .38 S&W is wider than the hole for the .38 Special, which is what causes the .38 Special cases to break.

Incidentally, I realized the markings on the barrel actually clearly show the caliber the gun started out as: .38'' x .767'' corresponds to a 0.38 round with a 0.767'' (= 20 mm) case length (i.e. .38 S&W). This should have been blindingly obvious to me, but I didn't know what I was looking at.

 

[Oro]

When I posted before, I was trying to be REALLY polite. I don't like saying "you paid too much" or "that's suspect." But Jim Watson (don't know him) and Saxon Pig (know him from the S&W forum; respect him as widely knowledgeable more than me) have already chimed in on those notes. I'd have not bought it - or would have used my knowledge to bargain it down to $200 or so. But still, it's not like you should kick yourself about this too harshly. My theme here - yeah, you could have got more gun for the money, but you did buy some history. Now that is fun, to me. Did you know you were buying a piece of WWII history, a piece of Lend-Lease, and possibly a gun that rode with naval armed guards on the run to Murmansk or on Mosquito reconnaissance raids over France or Norway? So is that a bonus to you or not?

Unless you can return the gun (I doubt), let's see ways to salvage this.

1) Wait 18 months or so. Prices will catch up at the current correction rates. You'll get it back; just consider it as "forfeiting" the 2.74% per anum interst you'd have made on the $125 too much you paid. peanuts. What's that, 2.75% on 125 for 1.5 years? Like, $5? Take your lunch to work one day instead of eating out and you'll break even.

2) Put it on Gunbroker, describe it accurately, make the pitch sexy, and hold back nothing - reveal all pros and cons. I bet you'll get your money back in a month or two - I've been shocked at the buying mania going on. If you want to take this route, I'll help you write a good ad and show you how - I've sold a few guns there, honestly, for very good prices. I sold a S&W .38 I didn't really like, describing all flaws, on Gunbroker last week for $425. I bought it for $275 about four months ago.

2) Shoot .38 S&W. I hope you reload, in which case it's not such a horrible outlay.

3) Look, it's not a horrible gun. It's overpriced for what it is, it's a bastard, but it also has a noble provenance - the Victory models to defeat Nazism. Is there a more "noble" gun out there? This is a living piece of history in your hand, so that's worth something.

I have a 1916 made S&W .455 Hand Ejector Second Model. Sent to the Brits and Canadians in WWI to supplement Colt and Webley sidearms (and so much better built than those two!). Spent time in 1917 and 1918 killing Huns and preserving our way of life. But it was later, and very skillfully, converted to .45 Long Colt. It's got about 85 to 90% original finish, some pitting, and not the original grips (big negative). It is NOT "collectible," but I love it. It shoots well, .45 LC is so much easier to deal with than .455 Eley, and I found an old vintage shoulder rig for it and I carry it sometimes for woods and riding. What fun. I think, "Defended western democracy when it was on the line; now I use it to defend myself and my horse - it's still working almost 100 years later."

Here's a pic. Don't beat yourself up about this gun, learn it's virtues (to me, 2" K frames are ALWAYS cool). maybe just go all in - round butt the grip, put on pearlite grips, and make it a pocket gun, reload for .38 S&W, and just have that warm fuzzy feeling of history in your pocket when you carry it.

Anyway, just trying to help. Here's my WWI .455 HE that I love, hope it helps to show you how you can get to like a gun that has flaws but has history...

 

[Powerplus]

"I have a 1916 made S&W .455 Hand Ejector Second Model. Sent to the Brits and Canadians in WWI to supplement Colt and Webley sidearms (and so much better built than those two!). Spent time in 1917 and 1918 killing Huns and preserving our way of life. But it was later, and very skillfully, converted to .45 Long Colt."

I have the same revolver as kamerer. Mine was converted to .45 ACP for use with moon clips. I trades an SKS for it several years ago. It was a super deal at the time, tho the SKS has gained more in value since then. I like it as it go's well with my 1917 S&W and Colt. Same as my 1937 S&W. I just like .45 wheel guns. I'm still curious about the 2" Victor models referenced in the link I sent and posted here. Has anyone seen one? Is it different than what SCmarksman bought?

 

[Iggy]

Kamerer

Very well said!!!

 

[Jim Watson]

In my younger days, I bought a .455 that had been roughly converted to .45 Colt.
I eventually sold it to a collector who wanted to be able to show one of the type (a Triple Lock) at a lower cost than an unaltered gun. The markings had not been changed and he was not going to shoot it, so we were both happy. Inflation kept me from losing money, but I also learnt a lesson.

 

[SaxonPig]

I apologize if I was rude but I was shocked to see what you paid for this cut up gun. To me, it's worth no more than $100.

Pictured is a Victory Model I bought a couple years back. The VMs generally are 5" barrels in 38 S&W for the brits and 4" barrels in 38 Special for the Yanks. This was an American gun with a 4" barrel in 38 Special. But somebody bulged the barrel.

The pawn shop couldn't sell it so I offered them $60 for it. I then found a 5" barrel from a late 1930s commercial model on ebay and bought it for $5 (not sure where to look now that ebay bans gun parts). A smith wanted $125 to do the swap but the gun wasn't worth that much. So I did it myself.

You can twist the frame if not real careful, so I soaked the barrel and frame in oil overnight, drove out the barrel retaining pin, clamped the barrel between two thin pieces of lumber in the vise, and used a long hammer handle through the cylinder window with gentle pressure. The barrel came right off.

The replacement fit nicely but I had a heck of a time getting the pin back in. Very hard to get all the holes lined up perfectly. Did finally manage it (took an hour) and the gun shoots fine. Total cost $65.

If had this gun you bought I'd look for a cheap barrel and do it again. You'd still have too much in it but at least you could safely shoot it. Shoot only 38 S&W ammo.

 

[mec]

In the 60s, a lot of these modified smiths were sold mail order through the gun magazines. 38 specials would often rip the undersized case from one end to the other. Probably shoot ok with 38 S&W Loads.

 

[Murdock]

Somebody jump in here if I'm wrong, but

I think the diameter of the .38 S&W case is greater than the .38 Spl. case. Many "conversions" were done in the 1950s when these guns stared coming home by deepening the chamber to .38 Spl. length, but swollen and split .38 Spl cases frequently resulted. My uncle sent his gun to S&W in the late 60's because it had this problem, and they fixed it with a new barrel and cylinder in .38 Spl for free. (Times change, don't they?).

The advice to shoot only .38 S&W should be heeded.

 

[SCmarksman]

Murdock:

I think the diameter of the .38 S&W case is greater than the .38 Spl. case.

That is indeed the case. When I insert a .38 Special round into the reamed cylinder, it clearly has way too much space between the case and the cylinder wall. You can see a close up of the cylinder in the picture I added above. Note that the end of the cylinder reamed to accept .38 Special is narrower than the rest of the cylinder.

 

[SCmarksman]

All's well that ends well...

Thank you guys, all of you! You have been really, really helpful.

The gun WAS worth $350 to me, because that’s what I paid for it. I wanted a .38 Special revolver to qualify with in the IDPA SSR category, to use in the back-up gun matches and to teach new shooters. After looking at short barreled Colt and S&W revolvers all day, I decided this one was the one because (1) it was blued nicely, (2) it had cool British markings indicating its Lend-Lease history, (3) it was an old K-frame without number and dash, (4) its barrel was shorter than 3’’, (5) it seemed mechanically sound and had a really sweet trigger pull, (6) it had a beautifully made trigger and hammer, (7) it had been destroyed as a collector’s piece already so I wouldn’t feel bad about shooting it a lot, (8) it was a .38 Special (or so I was told), (9) the price didn’t seem so bad compared to most other S&W revolvers on the tables, (10) it looked the most like my mental image of the perfect snub-nosed revolver, and best of all I could have it right now. Sure, I would have loved to find a S&W revolver that met all of my criteria for $150 complete with original box, but that probably isn’t going to happen to me in the next decade.

Thanks to you guys, I quickly found out that the revolver I was so excited about wasn’t a .38 Special after all, although it WILL accept the cartridge. That, along with the possible safety concerns of shooting it at all even with .38 S&W, made it unacceptable to me. I contacted the seller this morning, explained the problem to him, and he was gracious enough to meet me to refund all of my money before he drove home. When I met him, I brought a printed summary of the information I gained here and elsewhere and showed him what the different marks meant. He was more than happy to take it back, because it fits his need as a snub-nosed revolver that may never be fired again.

I think the seller was unaware of this revolver’s questionable conversion to .38 Special, because it had very old .38 Special rounds in it when he bought it, and he fired a cylinder full of .38 Special rounds out of it himself. I expect he will either keep it, or try to sell it at future gun shows, using the piece of paper I gave him as a selling point. This is the right revolver for somebody, just not for me because I intend to shoot it fairly frequently and need it to be a .38 Special.

Had I not been able to return it, I would have had a gunsmith install a new barrel with a front lug and a new cylinder to turn it into the sweet, history-laden .38 Special snubbie I had in mind when I purchased it.

Now, before I part with my revolver-fund again, I realize that I have a LOT of additional reading to do. Any suggestions on required S&W reading material?

Total cost of this lesson: $16 in gas
Making a bad gun show decision and not losing your shirt while learning your lesson: priceless.

Thanks again,
SCmarksman

 

[Oro]

Good you had a gentleman seller.

Get the book "The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" by Nahas and Supica. It is fabulous - and a bargain at Amazon.com. Also, spend some time at the Smith-wessonforum.com - there are a lot of very knowledgeable and helpful people there. SaxonPig is a regular there. There is an 1852-1945 forum that deals with the older guns.

I am not familiar with the rules of the IDPA SSR so don't know what the "right" gun is for that. To me, the perfect .38 S&W is the Model 15 (or 67 in stainless). 4" barrel, target sights, lovely balance and handling. Great gun to introduce new shooters - I've used it for that in the past. A 19/66 is very similar but also handles .357 - and commands a premium price because of that (usually $100 to $150 more).

PS - I did not mean earlier that SaxonPig or Jim were rude for saying "you paid too much." I was more trying to say I'm usually TOO polite even if asked! Apologies Mr. Pig if I came across that way!

 

[mike724]

I'll be back! Frequently!!

I followed this thread through, and learned not only all about Victory Model Bring-backs, but also what a nice buch of posters frequent this site. This is indeed The High Road!

 

[Will5A1]

SCmarksman - get a copy of The History of Smith & Wesson, Roy Jinks, $15.95 from the S&W website.

A heavy barrel Model 10, or a 64 or 65, will serve you fine in the SSR division if you can't find a 15/67, and some high viz. paint on the front sight will help.
I really like shooting revolvers in IDPA, I am often the only one doing so at our club and while I don't win any matches I have a great time.

If you are ever in SW Ohio we shoot the first Sunday of every month and are shooting the classifier this weekend - www.ccfsa.com

Good shooting and have fun hunting down a nice Smith, but be warned, these revolvers can be addiciting, you will likley have several, if not more, a year from now.

 

[SaxonPig]

Glad it worked out.

Keep looking. You'll find what you want. Try the GunBroker.com auction site. Sometimes good buys can be found there.

I got these two 2" M&Ps last year at a local show. Made in 1949 I gave $200 for one and $210 for the other. Far from pristine but great shooters and that's what I wanted.

 

[madcratebuilder]

M&P have gone up in price, what sold for $200 a few years ago, now brings $350+. I should have bought more of them.