1909 New Service Colt

[Nature Boy]

I'm hoping you guys could tell me something about my dad's 1909 New Service in 45 Long Colt. Serial number is 22410. Not many distinguishing marks on it unfortunately. He says he paid $25 for it in 1959. I shot a raccoon with it in 1980 and that's the last time it was fired. Thanks for any info you can share

 

[BobWright]

The gun appears to have no US markings, so likely not an M1909. If it were a commercial model, the grips would be black hard rubber. Since the grips carry no acceptance stamp, probably aftermarket grips.

This appears to be a commercial New Service. If you are looking for a value, guns of this vintage go for $800 ~ $1000, depending on condition. Original grips would place it at the higher end of value.


Bob Wright

 

[GBExpat]

For an approximate MFR date, try the link below:

http://www.colt.com/CustomerServices/SerialNumberLookup.aspx

 

[BobWright]

Maybe I wasn't too clear: The gun was likely made in 1909, but that does not make it an M1909.

The M1909 Colt New Service was adopted by the Army in .45 Colt caliber, and was the issue revolver until replaced by the M1911 Auto pistol. The M1909 would have US military markings. The cartridge by the way, was never produced commercially, but was a large rimmed version of the .45 Colt round. The rim was large eonugh that six cartridges cannot be loaded in a Colt SAA or Model 1878 Rod Ejector Double Action.

Bob Wright

 

[Nature Boy]

After posting I searched THR (which I should have done before, but hey, we all like to look at pictures of cool old guns, right?). I found that "RAC" was an inspectors stamp. Is that not what's on the bottom of the grip? Wouldn't that indicate these grips might be original to the pistol?

And according to the link GBExpat provided, the pistol was manufactured in 1909.....if I read it right

The only markings on the gun are that stamp on the bottom of the grip and the serial number on the frame under the cylinder

 

[Rio Laxas]

Regardless of what may be stamped on the grips, the RAC inspectors mark on my M1909 is on the right side of the gun near the heel. Also, mine is inscribed with US ARMY MODEL 1909 and the serial number on the butt. It also says "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" on the underside of the barrel. Mine is stamped COLT DA 45 on the left side of the barrel. I think most New Service revolvers in .45 Colt are stamped NEW SERVICE 45 COLT.

As BobWright mentioned, yours appears to be a commercial New Service, which is just as nice.

 

[Nature Boy]

I find the lack of markings kind of odd. According to dad, there's nothing on the barrel. Nothing on the frame. Just the serial number.

Do you guys who know these better than I find that to be unusual?

 

[Rio Laxas]

I don't think its odd that there are no markings on the butt. I think the commercial models had nothing on that portion, but generally there should be something inscribed on the left side of the barrel like NEW SERVICE 45 COLT and there should be patent markings on the top of the barrel. Mine says

COLTS PT FA MFG CO HARTFORD CT USA
PATD AUG 5 1884 JUNE 5 1900 JULY 4 1905

If those markings are not present, it could be that they have worn off or been polished out, though I don't see any overt signs of a refinish on your revolver. The barrel markings on mine are pretty difficult to read among the patina and pits, but they are legible.

It is also possible that a replacement barrel was installed at some point, though the barrel appears to be in similar condition to the frame. As long as the serial number is on the crane, I don't think I'd worry about it too much.

Is there still a rampant colt figure still present on the right side of the revolver about 1/2" behind and a little below the cylinder release?

Mine is very faint.

 

[Nature Boy]

I'll just have to look closer at it when I see him again. He's telling me there are no markings on it other than the serial number, but he's inspecting it with 80 year old eyes.

It was 50 years old when it bought it in '59 and it was in the condition as you see in the photos today. No telling what it's been through.

 

[Monac]

Nature Boy, that is an early production Colt New Service. A quick Google search suggests that only the first 21,000 guns had that style of trigger guard:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handguns/handgun_reviews_st_coltnewservice_200905/

And that the new trigger guard was introduced in...1909. What I can find out about the US Army's New Service Model of 1909 at short notice suggests they all had the new trigger guard, so I don't think your gun is one of those. But US martial revolvers are NOT my specialty.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yup. This is a first model New Service made on the old action before the positive safety system came in. The trigger guard stepping sharply down from the frame width is distinctive.

The USGI Model of 1909 is of the later type with positive safety and blended trigger guard contour.

 

[Nature Boy]

So this is not a 1909 new service, but it is it's precursor?

It's the "Old Model New Service" according to the article linked above. But it seems these were all purchased by the military, not commercial, correct?

 

[Nature Boy]

Dad just sent a picture of the other side. I can just make out what looks like "45 Colt" on the barrel.

 

[GBExpat]

FWIW, I think that that is a fine-looking pistol ... and, no, I actually prefer "character" to pristine bluing in such pieces. I have always liked the been-there-done-that look of the old revolvers.

 

[Rio Laxas]

I agree. My M1909 is in about the same condition, and I think it is fitting.

 

[Jim Watson]

I know of no US government adoption of the New Service except for the specific 1909 and 1917 variants. The illustrated revolver is a commercial sales model.

 

[Nature Boy]

Thanks Jim, and everyone else who's contributed to my education on this revolver. Neither me or my dad have any intention of messing with the character of this revolver.

As you can see, he keeps it loaded. This has been his primary home defense tool for as long as I can remember.

 

[Jim K]

A bit of the story: After the .38 caliber notably failed in the Spanish-American War and in the Philippines, the Army wanted to return to the .45, but in a more modern gun. The idea was eventually to adopt an auto pistol, but no one knew when, or even if, that would happen. So the Army turned to Colt to provide modern revolvers, at least as a stop-gap, and the result was the Model 1909, chambered for the .45 Colt.

But Army tests showed that the small rim of the .45 Colt tended to jump the extractor in the new revolver, so they had Frankford Arsenal make a cartridge with a larger rim, which was also called the Model 1909. That was the ammunition issued with those revolvers, though of course the .45 Colt and the .45 Army (.45 Schofield) would also fit and fire. .45 ACP will not work; the cartridge will fall too far into the chamber and there is no room for clips.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

Which has led me to wonder, why did they not go with the FA 1906 Revolver Cartridge?
It looks just like the .45 Auto 1906 except for a rim. (NOT the same as the post WWI Auto Rim.)

No difference in tooling costs and it might have avoided the double charge problem of the 1909 LC size case.

 

[Jim K]

Good question. The "Model 1906" was never a formal name, but it was the common one. The round used a full metal jacket bullet of 230 grains and was developed for testing revolvers that would be submitted for a proposed trial.

Why FMJ? I don't know, but the Hague Convention of 1905 had just banned lead bullets, so it is likely that the U.S. was considering going that route as well. Since we were not at war at the time, and had not signed the Hague agreement (though we publicly stated that we would abide by it), the FMJ was presumably not an issue when we adopted the M1909 cartridge with its 250 grain lead bullet.

I will note one possible problem with the "Model 1906" cartridge. It was shorter than the .45 Colt cartridge, and even with a larger rim, would tend to jump the extractor, the shorter case allowing the round more "wiggle" than the Model 1909 round.

Jim

 

[Monac]

Nature Boy, that is an early production Colt New Service. A quick Google search suggests that only the first 21,000 guns had that style of trigger guard:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handguns/handgun_reviews_st_coltnewservice_200905/

And that the new trigger guard was introduced in...1909. What I can find out about the US Army's New Service Model of 1909 at short notice suggests they all had the new trigger guard, so I don't think your gun is one of those. But US martial revolvers are NOT my specialty.

Sorry to reply to my own message, but I did some reading and found out that in addition to the 21,000 "Old Model" New Services with this type of trigger guard, there were an additional 2,000 "Transitional Models" that still had the early trigger guard but had the "Positive Safety Lock" as part of the trigger mechanism (which the Old Models lacked). These 2,000 were also made in 1909.

This is from an old monograph, "Colt New Service Revolvers" by Bob Murphy, copyright 1985. I don't seem to have anything newer that goes into that kind of detail about New Services.

 

[Jim Watson]

Interesting.
I guess you would have to look inside.
I know what a positive safety action looks like from having the sideplate off my Python, but not an Old Model.

 

[Nature Boy]

Got more info from dad last night. He got the magnifier out and found the following on the barrel:

"New Service 45 Colt" on the left side of the barrel
"Colt PTFA Mfg Co Hartford CT USA Aug 15 1884"
And another date, "Jun 15 1900"

Does this info help or change any of the assumptions above?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I picked this one up a number of years ago. SN 158XX. 1906 manufacture.



This one is clearly a commercial New Service. Caliber is 45 Colt.

The only markings on it, other than the SN under the crane, are New Service 45 Colt on the side of the barrel, and on the top of the barrel:

COLT'S PATENTED FIREARMS MANUFACTURING CO
HARTFORD CT. USA. PAT AUG 5 1884 JUNE 5 1900

This is a really big gun, it is the biggest revolver I own.

It dwarfs a S&W Model 1917.




I took it apart once just to see what was inside. I do not expect to repeat that exercise, it was a pain to get back together again. There is no safety mechanism of any sort inside, other than the rebounding hammer.




The 45 Colt cartridge all the way on the right in this photo is one of the rounds made specifically for this revolver. Note how wide the rim is, compared to all the others. This round was made at the Frankford Arsenal in December of 1913.

 

[manchester2]

Is the lanyard ring a clue to its origins? Would seem to be military use. Did commercial revolvers come with these too?